DOs and DONTs: Talking with Black Men about Childhood Sexual Abuse

[Dos and Dont's episode] How can the harmful stereotypes surrounding Black Men prevent recognition, understanding and healing from sexual abuse? Join Sophia and filmmaker Davy as they discuss disclosing as an adult, remembering the past, adultification biases, and the journey to healing.

Transcript

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Welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing, a series all about having approachable

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conversations on child sexual abuse but with serious joy.

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I'm Sophia, a designer and a survivor.

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And today's episode is all about child sexual abuse and black men.

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So for that, I'm joined by my dear friend Davy

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Hi Sophia

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I'm Davy Lazare

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I'm a writer, director and filmmaker.

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I'm actually also filming this right now.

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And yeah, I'm just really excited to share my story today.

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Really grateful for the space to share my my story.

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And, yeah, let's let's get into it.

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In this section, we're going to share some really practical

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and approachable advice about how you can have conversations on child

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sexual abuse, particularly as how it pertains to black men.

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So Davy let's get the don'ts out the way first.

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We typically go through a do and don't structure.

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Yeah not certainly.

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So what I would say is the first one

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and this is it sounds really simple but it's so key.

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Don't be silent.

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You know I think there's a lot of shame.

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There's a lot of hiding.

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And, you know, there's a lot of, like,

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disgust.

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Let's be honest. Right. That can come that comes with this.

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And I think it's really important,

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you know, to kind of put it out there in the open.

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And I think, you know, especially the black community as well.

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I feel like at times, you know, we have so much of a traumas and issues

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that we're sort of going through

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and the times we think that the best way to deal with

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it is just to kind of put our head down and keep going,

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because that's what we're used to doing, you know.

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You know, it's a black community.

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We're used to oppression.

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We're used to difficult things, and often the way we deal with it,

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because we don't trust the systems and the services that are out there

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for us, put our head down and we stay quiet

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and we try and not bring shame or, you know, or bad vibes to the family.

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But so for me, I think the main thing is to like, don't be silent.

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Do not be silent.

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And how how could that manifest in not being silent?

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Yeah.

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So for me, it's just, you know, starting by,

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it's going to be really uncomfortable, but just speaking about it openly, whatever.

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You know, that's in, church meeting, whether that's, you know, with family

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around wherever you know, that's like, family gathering, you know what I mean?

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But getting it out there in in spaces that feel that that is going to feel

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like we should just be silent, we shouldn't be airing

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our family's dirty laundry out, you know, even friends of the family as well.

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You know, I think as well, we're also, you know, I think as black people,

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you know, we're often quite kind of scared of making make it, making our family

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look bad to others, to the friends of the family, to our congregation in church.

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And I just think we have to do away with that, you know, and just share it,

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share it, you know, and and make it open and let people know, you know, that, like,

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you are a survivor and you need the support that they can give.

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And you know, and yeah, so let let people know

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that you are a survivor and you need you need the support that they can give.

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What about as well if,

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if someone hears gossip like about a situation

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of child sexual abuse, like standing up and defending that as well.

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And then people know that you care about this cause

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and that you're somebody to be, you know, support that support.

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Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

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That's what you're doing.

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So obviously I'm not black, so my don't it's very inclusive and allyship don't.

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Yeah.

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What kind of similar actually.

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Like, do not assume that just like, what works for you

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or your community is something that's going to work

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for somebody else, and that that is across the board.

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But I think particularly when talking about blackness, like,

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you know, there's there's like you mentioned about

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how you might not want to tell your mum, for example, you know,

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and sometimes a reaction someone might have is like,

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oh my God, how could you don't want to do that?

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Of course,

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the reaction is going to be x, y and z, but actually you don't know that.

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Like you don't know the person's experience.

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You don't know the background, you don't know what's going on.

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Like, all you can do is be there for them.

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Ask why that might be the case.

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Support them with coming up with options, but don't assume that

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what's worked elsewhere is going to work for this person.

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Absolutely.

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And what’s your do then?

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Oh, I love how you're reversing the intervierw I love it

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There we go, the student it now the master

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Yeah, you clocked it.

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So I have three dos.

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Okay. Love it, if I may.

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So the three Dos pertain to organizations, allies, and then black men themselves.

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So I'll do it in the order.

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Organizationally, do

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lobby organizations, your departments, your communities

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to have services specifically for black men.

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So, for example, if you see a child sexual abuse charity

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and there's only a handful of them nationally as it is write to them

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and be like, where is your support service for black men?

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What are you going to do?

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These situations look different, as we've heard, based on who you are.

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And so black men need a support group.

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If you know of a black community group,

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how could they have a support service for child sexual abuse survivors?

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And then similarly, culturally, in terms of research

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reports, there's not much research being done on black men.

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And we will link in the podcast to a couple that we know of

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that are out there, but lobbying them as well,

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because unfortunately, if institutions don't hear

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that this is an issue, they're not going to see it as an issue.

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They're not going to then provide support services to people who need it.

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So the first do is lobby support services to provide support for black men.

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Yeah, that's a huge one. -Thank you.

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The second one pertaining to allyship is do

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make space to talk about race and gender in these conversations.

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Not talking about race.

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Like look, racism is hard. Like it's not.

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You're adding

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another difficult topic onto an already extremely hard to talk about topic,

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but by not acknowledging the person's race or identity or gender,

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that doesn't mean it's going to go away.

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It just means that there's a whole part of themselves

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that you are forgetting when you're having this conversation, and then it's harder

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to acknowledge and deal with the abuse itself.

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Right?

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I'll give you a very, very small example.

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So when I was at primary school, I grew up in Croydon.

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My primary school was very mixed in terms of race and that,

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when it was coloring in time, we had these kind of, like

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pots of coloring pencils or skin colours, and they were called people colour.

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I know

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this year there was a boy at school who was very, very dark skinned,

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and he could never find his pencil in that pot.

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And even as a six year old child, I was thinking,

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oh, that kid's colour's not in the pot.

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Does that mean they're not a person?

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But I know that they're a person.

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And so imagine if you're the kid themselves, you're thinking, oh, I'm

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not human.

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You know, this kid was such a good kid as well.

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Like, he invite everyone to his house for his birthday.

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Even the little snotty kid that was getting bullied like everyone was invited.

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He was such a good boy.

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Like he stood up against bullies, but he's always been branded as naughty.

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And then years later, he actually is now in

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jail for, sexual crimes.

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And you kind of think there what’s gone wrong there like,

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there's been such a repression in terms of factoring in talking

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about race, even from such a young age, that we were talking about that

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box earlier.

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It just felt like there was this box confiding him.

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He’s been dehumanized. -Yeah, exactly.

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So as part of humanizing everybody and taking place

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and accepting someone of their wholeness, ask about race, ask about gender.

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And look, you might not get it right.

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Like, you know, I'm asking questions

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a lot to you and there's things that I'm learning.

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So, you know, it might just be saying things like, how might that look different

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in a black context?

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Or you even said, growing up in Saint Martin's,

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you don't think about yourself as black.

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You know, there's so many layers there.

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So just make space for as well, because the person is more than the abuse.

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But there's other factors affecting that as well.

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My final do is for black men themselves.

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More as a reminder.

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Do you remember there are other black men who have gone

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through a similar experience to you and you are not alone.

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Like Hardy Caprio about a year ago.

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He's a rapper.

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He came out about this saying that he'd gone through this experience.

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There's a journalist called Ben Hunt

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who did a BBC program about black men and where black men in child sexual abuse.

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Why is that so hard?

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And of course, we have the wonderful Davy, who's so,

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so boldly and so beautifully shared this story with us today.

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So, you know, if you're out there and you're wondering

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what it might be like to talk, you have a mirror right here and

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if we talk about these experiences

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and make them more prominent, we are able to heal from them.

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So I hope that,

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you know, David, your your reminder to people that they are not alone.

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Absolutely.

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And actually, one final, final reminder on that is do

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remember that black men are not a monolith as as black men.

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We know what they expect of us, and we don't have to be that, you know.

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So I think it's very important to let go of all the all of all that,

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all that baggage, all of that noise that says what a black man is supposed to be.

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And for me especially, you know, I've, I've felt I've had to, you know,

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really work to kind of overcome the shame and the feeling of feeling less.

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I feel like I'm less.

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I feel like if I say this to another man, especially a black man,

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that makes me less than him, that that means I'm a few tears down

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because, because, because I've been abused.

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And obviously that's that's nonsense.

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You know, that's completely wrong.

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And anyone that thinks that should not be in

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your circle should not be anywhere near your circle.

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So just remember that black men are not a monolith and it's okay to cry.

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You know, it's okay to be soft.

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It's okay to hold your mate's hand.

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It's okay to, you know, tell him you love him and it's okay

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that this can sometimes be too much.

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And it's also okay to ask for help.

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You know, there's nothing worse.

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There's nothing worse than being silent and silently

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holding on to something that is eating you from the inside out.

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Trust me. I've done it.

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I will, I've tried to do it, and I failed, you know, because it's not

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how we're supposed to live, you know, just on a human level.

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We are communal.

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We are social creatures. We need each other.

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We need people.

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The best things that ever happened to any of us always involve other people,

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you know?

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And sometimes the worst things that happen to us also needs to involve people.

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So. So for me, yeah, you know, like, just remember that black men,

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we're not all the same.

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We don't have to be the same.

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Just, you know, let your vulnerability out wear your heart out

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in the open and, you know, just ask for help.

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Ask for help, ask for support and let people help you.

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Let people give you the support.

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You know, I think that is also a really big, big thing as well.

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You know, feeling like you don't want people to help

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because you don't want to be a burden or you don't want to show that,

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that you're somehow kind of weak or or you can't handle it.

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It's okay.

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It's okay to not be able to handle it honestly.

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Like I'm my heart is singing right now

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because I just think these are messages that people really.

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I'm just saying this like, I just really think these are messages

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that people need to hear that are not being said.

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And just watching you say it directly to camera is just

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I'm like, wow, like someone out there is going to see that.

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And the echoes of what you've just said are just going to live, live on forever.

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I hope so, I think it's really important to note as well that silence is deadly.

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You know, the biggest killer of men in the UK under 55.

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Is suicide

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let that sink in 

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the main thing that men in the UK are dying from

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who are under 55 is suicide.

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And we're not talking about this.

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How is this not a national news story?

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How we how are we not in crisis mode?

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So so for me, yeah, I think, you know,

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let go of whatever baggage, let go of whatever walls

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you have around you that you think are protecting you

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because those walls are not protecting you.

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They're actually just leading to your downfall.

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They're actually just leading to you

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potentially doing something really, really bad.

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So yeah, ask for help, man.

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It's really it's really that simple.

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Ask for help.

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Welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing.

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A series all about having approachable conversations on child sexual abuse.

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But with serious joy.

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I'm Sofia, a designer and a survivor.

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And today's episode is all about child sexual abuse and black men.

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So for that, I'm joined by my dear friend David.

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Hi everyone, I'm Debbie Lazar.

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I'm a writer, director and filmmaker.

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I'm actually also filming this right now.

00:13:58:05 - 00:14:00:09
And yeah, I'm just really excited to share my story today.

00:14:00:09 - 00:14:03:09
Really grateful for the space to share my my story.

00:14:03:09 - 00:14:06:01
And, yeah, let's let's get into it.

00:14:06:01 - 00:14:09:00
I should also add, yeah, that we mentioned that you're filming this.

00:14:09:00 - 00:14:12:00
So the only reason we're able to do, like, an in-person shoot is because David

00:14:12:00 - 00:14:15:14
has set up the lighting, the sound and two cameras entirely by himself.

00:14:15:14 - 00:14:19:00
So not only are you going to be a host, a wisdom

00:14:19:00 - 00:14:22:08
share, a survivor, but you're also the entire cast and crew.

00:14:22:08 - 00:14:23:15
So yeah, I'm

00:14:23:15 - 00:14:26:18
some I'm somehow over here and also behind the camera at the same time.

00:15:16:09 - 00:15:18:04
Hi. Welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing,

00:15:18:04 - 00:15:22:02
a series all about having approachable conversations on childhood sexual abuse.

00:15:22:02 - 00:15:23:21
But with serious joy.

00:15:23:21 - 00:15:26:13
I'm Sofia, a survivor and a designer.

00:15:26:13 - 00:15:30:20
And today's episode is all about childhood sexual abuse and black men.

00:15:31:01 - 00:15:33:23
So for that, I'm joined by my dear friend David.

00:15:33:23 - 00:15:35:13
Hey, Sofia. Hey, everyone.

00:15:35:13 - 00:15:38:19
So yeah, I'm David ism, writer, director and filmmaker.

00:15:39:06 - 00:15:39:09
Yeah.

00:15:39:09 - 00:15:42:20
I'm really excited to share my story today, and also very grateful for Sofia

00:15:42:20 - 00:15:45:09
for creating this space for me to share my story.

00:15:45:09 - 00:15:50:14
And, and yeah, I'm also filming this at the same time as being in this somehow.

00:15:51:00 - 00:15:51:22
Yeah.

00:15:51:22 - 00:15:54:06
The only reason we're able to do this is because David

00:15:54:06 - 00:15:56:13
for bought his kit and me to his house,

00:15:56:13 - 00:15:59:07
where he set up the lighting, the microphones and two cameras.

00:15:59:07 - 00:16:01:23
So, yeah, you're a bit of a one man band on you.

00:16:01:23 - 00:16:02:10
That's me.

00:16:04:20 - 00:16:07:15
I feel like the jokes are getting more and more like.

00:16:07:15 - 00:16:08:05
I like to watch.

00:16:08:05 - 00:16:10:08
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That was good, though.

00:16:10:08 - 00:16:12:13
Yeah. You got it. Yes. In the back. All right. Awesome.

00:16:12:13 - 00:16:14:13
It's a wrap. It's a wrap.

00:16:14:13 - 00:16:16:19
It's. Yeah. We got that.

00:16:16:19 - 00:16:19:19
Let's turn this off and get this stuff downloaded.

00:17:49:04 - 00:17:50:13
Welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing.

00:17:50:13 - 00:17:53:08
A series all about having conversations on child sexual.

00:17:53:08 - 00:17:55:10
Be filled with serious joy.

00:17:55:10 - 00:17:57:12
Sofia, a designer and survivor.

00:17:57:12 - 00:18:01:02
And today's episode is all about child sexual abuse and black men.

00:18:01:06 - 00:18:03:20
And for that, I'm joined by my friend David. Hey.

00:18:03:20 - 00:18:06:12
You all right? Yeah. Okay. So you wanna introduce yourself?

00:18:06:12 - 00:18:07:05
Yeah. Of course.

00:18:07:05 - 00:18:08:00
Hey, everyone.

00:18:08:00 - 00:18:10:23
I'm David, I'm a writer, director and filmmaker.

00:18:10:23 - 00:18:13:23
And, yeah, I'm just an all around happy go lucky guy.

00:18:13:23 - 00:18:14:08
So, you know,

00:18:14:08 - 00:18:18:11
definitely gonna try and bring as much joy to what is a very difficult, you know,

00:18:18:11 - 00:18:22:05
sort of thing, you know, that sort of takes place, you know, in our world.

00:18:22:05 - 00:18:24:18
I just love being a a black filmmaker.

00:18:24:18 - 00:18:27:08
I think there's so much space now for black actors

00:18:27:08 - 00:18:30:08
and creatives, you know, to sort of share their work and share their art.

00:18:30:12 - 00:18:33:12
And so, yeah, definitely excited to share my story with you guys today.

00:18:33:18 - 00:18:36:10
So in this really practical and approachable section,

00:18:36:10 - 00:18:39:12
we're just going to give you some really like quick do's and don'ts

00:18:39:12 - 00:18:43:05
for talking about childhood sexual abuse, particularly as it pertains to black men.

00:18:43:08 - 00:18:45:16
So David, let's start with the don'ts.

00:18:45:16 - 00:18:46:16
Let's get them out of the way.

00:18:46:16 - 00:18:47:07
Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:47:07 - 00:18:48:00
So for me the

00:18:48:00 - 00:18:51:21
my my first don't is don't feel like you have to have all the answers.

00:18:51:21 - 00:18:55:18
That's really, really key because you don't you know for something

00:18:55:18 - 00:18:59:00
as deep and complex as this, it's not it's not often about answers.

00:18:59:00 - 00:19:01:06
It's just about being that and kind of like

00:19:01:06 - 00:19:02:21
letting that person know that you're there.

00:19:04:02 - 00:19:06:03
My next one is,

00:19:06:03 - 00:19:10:11
don't feel the silences, you know, be able to sit in the silence.

00:19:10:11 - 00:19:12:02
Just let it. Happen.

00:19:12:02 - 00:19:13:09
That's what you one. Yeah.

00:19:13:09 - 00:19:18:03
Because over talking actually when someone is distressed talking too much

00:19:18:03 - 00:19:21:10
can actually make the person more stressed you know, and agitated.

00:19:21:24 - 00:19:24:03
You know, give the person time to speak.

00:19:24:03 - 00:19:27:24
Let the silence just breathe and the conversation will flow.

00:19:30:04 - 00:19:31:14
So that's my don'ts.

00:19:31:14 - 00:19:32:11
That's my don'ts.

00:19:32:11 - 00:19:34:05
I have a couple of don'ts, too.

00:19:34:05 - 00:19:35:19
Obviously, I'm not black.

00:19:35:19 - 00:19:40:06
So my number from us perspective of like allyship and sharing, conversation

00:19:41:01 - 00:19:45:02
very similar to your one about don't feeling like you have to know the answers.

00:19:45:22 - 00:19:49:02
Do not assume that what is right

00:19:49:06 - 00:19:52:02
for you might be right for the person,

00:19:52:02 - 00:19:54:19
particularly if they're like, have a difference to you, right?

00:19:54:19 - 00:19:58:13
So for example, like you shared about how you might not want to talk to your

00:19:58:13 - 00:20:00:10
mum about it or there's certain people in your life

00:20:00:10 - 00:20:02:20
you might not be ready to have that conversation with, like,

00:20:02:20 - 00:20:06:04
that's not my onus or duty to force you to have that conversation.

00:20:06:04 - 00:20:10:01
You know, like what works for you, what works for you and your background

00:20:10:01 - 00:20:12:17
and your lived experience might not be what works for me.

00:20:12:17 - 00:20:16:12
And I have seen so many examples where people disclosing

00:20:16:12 - 00:20:18:00
to parents, for example, has been worse.

00:20:18:00 - 00:20:21:05
So trust that the person knows themself.

00:20:21:06 - 00:20:26:01
You are there to not make assumptions, but to aid them with what they might need.

00:20:26:01 - 00:20:27:08
You know.

00:20:27:08 - 00:20:29:19
Absolutely. Yeah I them I do.

00:20:29:19 - 00:20:34:03
My first do is I would say do forget everything

00:20:34:03 - 00:20:38:15
you thought you knew about masculinity or how to be masculine.

00:20:39:04 - 00:20:42:06
Because I think, I think I think many times we have this wall between us

00:20:42:06 - 00:20:45:20
where it's like we have to be masculine with each other.

00:20:45:20 - 00:20:49:07
And I think when you come into that, you know, when you come in to talk to your

00:20:50:01 - 00:20:53:05
especially as black men as well, because we're supposed to be so hyper masculine.

00:20:53:14 - 00:20:56:06
I think it's really, really important to just forget everything you thought

00:20:56:06 - 00:20:59:21
you knew about how to be masculine, be a man and just let the tears come.

00:21:00:01 - 00:21:03:06
Let, let the hugs flow, you know,

00:21:03:24 - 00:21:07:08
you know, if you need to touch his hand or sort of stroke his back, like,

00:21:07:17 - 00:21:11:14
you know, you know, I mean, it's it's it's all it's all fine.

00:21:11:14 - 00:21:12:12
It's all going to be good.

00:21:13:11 - 00:21:14:22
Because men can be

00:21:14:22 - 00:21:18:03
intimate with each other, you know, in, in a friendly way.

00:21:18:03 - 00:21:18:16
You know what I mean?

00:21:18:16 - 00:21:21:16
Like, it's it's, you know, if you think about when, when we were

00:21:21:16 - 00:21:24:21
boys, maybe a little boys, we'd hold hands, you know, we'd walk together.

00:21:25:13 - 00:21:26:07
And it was never an issue.

00:21:26:07 - 00:21:29:08
But at some point when we, when we became

00:21:29:08 - 00:21:32:10
men, those things became, you know, a taboo.

00:21:32:10 - 00:21:34:14
So for me, yeah, it's like there's no taboos.

00:21:34:14 - 00:21:39:03
And so I'm, I don't have change the, change the the the the the the line.

00:21:39:03 - 00:21:39:12
But for me.

00:21:39:12 - 00:21:39:16
Yeah.

00:21:39:16 - 00:21:42:16
Like, forget everything you thought you knew about masculinity.

00:21:42:18 - 00:21:45:18
That's, beautiful. You put that so nicely.

00:21:45:18 - 00:21:49:07
And then my second do is do

00:21:49:07 - 00:21:52:22
create space to go places.

00:21:53:16 - 00:21:57:06
And by that I mean, like, the conversation has so much depth

00:21:57:06 - 00:22:00:16
and so many layers, you need to make sure that the environment is right.

00:22:00:24 - 00:22:04:17
So probably wouldn't recommend having this chat at the pub.

00:22:06:06 - 00:22:07:22
You know, let me know in the.

00:22:07:22 - 00:22:12:15
Club or in the club or you know, or like at your football game.

00:22:12:15 - 00:22:12:20
Like,

00:22:12:20 - 00:22:16:20
I know these things sound really obvious, but the space, the environment, the mood,

00:22:17:00 - 00:22:20:12
like the time of day, all of these things need to be right.

00:22:20:19 - 00:22:24:01
Because sharing these things, you know, at times it's like kind of

00:22:24:12 - 00:22:27:11
you kind of, you know, the person sharing is almost pulling this stuff

00:22:27:11 - 00:22:30:18
out of them, you know, of them selves.

00:22:30:18 - 00:22:33:21
And so I think it's really important to just make sure that the space, the mood,

00:22:33:21 - 00:22:38:12
the timing is just conducive for letting those

00:22:39:00 - 00:22:41:24
really sort of hard talks flow.

00:22:41:24 - 00:22:45:03
How do you feel about having difficult conversations

00:22:45:03 - 00:22:47:01
where you're both looking at the same thing?

00:22:47:01 - 00:22:50:14
So for example, on a long drive, going for a walk, that kind of thing,

00:22:50:14 - 00:22:54:09
because I've had a lot from men that that really helps to open up when

00:22:54:09 - 00:22:58:01
you're not like looking at each other, but you're both focused on something else.

00:22:58:01 - 00:22:59:13
Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Definitely.

00:22:59:13 - 00:23:01:08
You know, a long drive is really, really good.

00:23:02:10 - 00:23:02:16
Yeah.

00:23:02:16 - 00:23:05:11
Like, yeah. Long drive, a long walk.

00:23:05:11 - 00:23:05:19
And there.

00:23:05:19 - 00:23:09:07
Yeah, I know that other men, we can sometimes find it hard to do this,

00:23:09:24 - 00:23:11:01
you know what I mean?

00:23:11:01 - 00:23:13:21
And so, yeah, if, if, you know, if you all guys that find it

00:23:13:21 - 00:23:17:14
hard to do this sort of face to face thing, it is it is nice to maybe have

00:23:18:03 - 00:23:21:12
a distraction, you know, whether, I mean, it could even be you know, that, like,

00:23:21:19 - 00:23:23:12
you guys are like, painting something, you know what I mean?

00:23:23:12 - 00:23:25:06
Yeah. You're painting something.

00:23:25:06 - 00:23:27:22
Or maybe you're playing Xbox or something like that.

00:23:27:22 - 00:23:30:22
Yeah. No, no, not in the like that one.

00:23:31:04 - 00:23:33:04
In the middle of, like, shooting someone up.

00:23:33:04 - 00:23:35:00
Yeah.

00:23:35:00 - 00:23:35:13
But not like.

00:23:35:13 - 00:23:38:13
Yeah, I definitely think, you know, that, you know,

00:23:38:19 - 00:23:44:11
just having a kind of easy activity is also good, you know?

00:23:44:11 - 00:23:48:18
I mean, so, so if you can have an activity that also you know, has space

00:23:48:18 - 00:23:50:07
for you guys to talk.

00:23:50:07 - 00:23:51:23
Yeah. That's that, that's even better.

00:23:51:23 - 00:23:53:10
Yeah. That's nice.

00:23:53:10 - 00:23:55:20
And also, it doesn't have to be one conversation,

00:23:55:20 - 00:23:57:16
you know, like it could be a really casual one.

00:23:57:16 - 00:24:00:06
Like, you know, like a quick one randomly over

00:24:00:06 - 00:24:02:16
for about processing the emotion or whatever,

00:24:02:16 - 00:24:05:09
you know, or and then it could be a really intense emotional one on a walk.

00:24:05:09 - 00:24:07:05
Like, it doesn't have to be a one and done thing.

00:24:07:05 - 00:24:10:02
We try and say that as well, because you're not going to know

00:24:10:02 - 00:24:12:12
exactly how you feel in just one sitting or you.

00:24:12:12 - 00:24:13:14
Yeah.

00:24:13:14 - 00:24:14:01
Absolutely.

00:24:14:01 - 00:24:16:23
Oh, actually, I have another do please.

00:24:16:23 - 00:24:20:04
I'd say do remember aftercare. Exactly.

00:24:20:04 - 00:24:23:13
Because as you just said, it's not it's not one conversation, you know.

00:24:23:18 - 00:24:26:18
And what you'll find is after that first conversation that you have

00:24:26:19 - 00:24:27:24
where, you know, where your friend,

00:24:27:24 - 00:24:30:24
where you open up to your friend or they open up to you,

00:24:31:05 - 00:24:33:09
there will be a little shift in the friendship.

00:24:33:09 - 00:24:35:07
So it's really important to make sure

00:24:35:07 - 00:24:37:17
that you nurture the friendship and you make sure that, like,

00:24:37:17 - 00:24:39:10
it doesn't become awkward or stiff.

00:24:39:10 - 00:24:42:10
You know, like make sure that you nurture that,

00:24:42:15 - 00:24:46:05
that, that initial chat, you know, and give that aftercare.

00:24:46:05 - 00:24:48:15
So that like the friendship and,

00:24:48:15 - 00:24:51:09
the friendship is, you know, is is still strong.

00:24:51:09 - 00:24:53:07
Yeah. Yeah. That's lovely.

00:24:53:07 - 00:24:56:15
So how could that look like, for example, like we talked about,

00:24:57:04 - 00:24:59:02
worrying about being a burden, for example.

00:24:59:02 - 00:25:02:01
But you could say like, oh, like we've had a really intense discussion

00:25:02:01 - 00:25:05:01
and I don't want you to feel like I'm going to bring it up with you

00:25:05:01 - 00:25:06:11
every single time we chat.

00:25:06:11 - 00:25:09:11
Like, I want you to still feel like we can hang out together and that, like,

00:25:09:13 - 00:25:10:02
would you

00:25:10:02 - 00:25:14:04
like me to bring it up at another time, or would you like me to leave it a bit?

00:25:14:04 - 00:25:15:13
You know, do you want me to take your lead?

00:25:15:13 - 00:25:19:02
Like, even just offering choices to the person can be helpful too.

00:25:19:02 - 00:25:20:05
Yeah, absolutely. For sure.

00:25:20:05 - 00:25:24:12
And I think you as the, listener, you know, I think you at times

00:25:24:12 - 00:25:28:06
can can be the one to actually, you know, to almost broach the conversation.

00:25:28:06 - 00:25:30:18
You know, you can be the one to be like, hey, you know,

00:25:30:18 - 00:25:33:21
how's everything going with, you know, your stuff, you know, and and.

00:25:33:21 - 00:25:34:02
Yeah.

00:25:34:02 - 00:25:37:21
And I think as well, like, I think humor really helps, you know,

00:25:38:01 - 00:25:41:05
again, kind of like being being able to sort of bring it up

00:25:41:05 - 00:25:44:10
to speak to your friend in a kind of lighthearted way,

00:25:44:10 - 00:25:47:15
I think is really key because, again, you know, no one wants to be drowning

00:25:47:15 - 00:25:51:03
in the heaviness of it, but ultimately we can't ignore it as well.

00:25:51:03 - 00:25:51:15
So yeah.

00:25:51:15 - 00:25:54:18
Yeah, definitely say, yeah, great advice.

00:25:55:03 - 00:25:56:15
I have free yeah.

00:25:57:24 - 00:26:01:08
If I May 1st is an organization bit of advice.

00:26:01:16 - 00:26:04:14
One needs an ally bit of advice and one is for black men.

00:26:04:14 - 00:26:06:18
So I'll do it in that order.

00:26:06:18 - 00:26:12:06
So the organization advice is do lobby your charities, your community

00:26:12:06 - 00:26:15:24
charities to create a service for black men on child sexual abuse.

00:26:15:24 - 00:26:19:01
So it might be like you write to a body of therapist

00:26:19:01 - 00:26:20:10
and you go, hey, do you have anyone

00:26:20:10 - 00:26:23:10
that specifically focuses on child sexual abuse for black men?

00:26:23:10 - 00:26:28:14
Or it might be a community that supports black men or black people in in something,

00:26:29:02 - 00:26:31:23
and you say do have a section that focuses on child abuse, or

00:26:31:23 - 00:26:36:03
you go to a child sexual abuse charity and you say, where is the black men?

00:26:36:07 - 00:26:37:17
Where's the support for them?

00:26:37:17 - 00:26:41:02
Because only when we ask and we, you know, we lobby for it.

00:26:41:02 - 00:26:43:07
Do these organizations realize that there's a need?

00:26:43:07 - 00:26:44:13
So big wonder

00:26:45:18 - 00:26:47:07
the allyship one

00:26:47:07 - 00:26:50:01
makes space to talk about race and gender

00:26:50:01 - 00:26:53:01
and all the other intersections in the conversation.

00:26:53:08 - 00:26:56:05
And I say that because, look, it's going to be hard.

00:26:56:05 - 00:26:59:01
But not everybody loves talking about race. Like it's difficult.

00:26:59:01 - 00:27:02:21
You know, you're adding another layer of shittin us onto the difficult topic.

00:27:02:21 - 00:27:04:07
You're already talking about.

00:27:04:07 - 00:27:07:23
But I truly think if you don't do that, it's harder to understand

00:27:07:23 - 00:27:09:19
the person in their wholeness.

00:27:09:19 - 00:27:12:04
I'll give you a really tiny example if I can.

00:27:12:04 - 00:27:14:22
When I was at primary school, I grew up in Croydon.

00:27:14:22 - 00:27:16:16
I went to a state primary school.

00:27:16:16 - 00:27:18:15
There were lots of black kids are lots of Asian kids.

00:27:18:15 - 00:27:19:23
There was a big mix of us.

00:27:19:23 - 00:27:23:16
And when it was like coloring in time, we have like a set of coloring pencils

00:27:23:16 - 00:27:24:19
called the People colors.

00:27:26:00 - 00:27:26:12
Yeah.

00:27:26:12 - 00:27:28:09
And it was like all different skin tone colors.

00:27:28:09 - 00:27:29:13
Right?

00:27:29:13 - 00:27:32:13
There was this little boy in our class, our name him, obviously,

00:27:33:06 - 00:27:36:03
but he could never have very dark skin boy,

00:27:36:03 - 00:27:40:17
and he could never find his pencil in the people's color.

00:27:41:02 - 00:27:44:13
And I always remember, even as a little kid, just thinking I was like,

00:27:44:13 - 00:27:47:13
hang on with, he's a person.

00:27:47:16 - 00:27:48:24
His skin is that color.

00:27:48:24 - 00:27:51:00
Why is it his color in the box?

00:27:51:00 - 00:27:52:20
Does that mean he's not a person?

00:27:52:20 - 00:27:53:04
You know?

00:27:53:04 - 00:27:55:17
And this is me at the age of like seven, thinking that.

00:27:55:17 - 00:28:00:15
So if we're not able, I, you know, imagine growing up and being the person you know

00:28:00:15 - 00:28:04:10
and and that kid also was always like marked as the naughty boy.

00:28:04:13 - 00:28:05:19
And he was such a good kid.

00:28:05:19 - 00:28:07:04
He white everybody in the whole class,

00:28:07:04 - 00:28:09:21
his house for his birthday, even the kid that was getting bullied,

00:28:09:21 - 00:28:12:03
you know, like he always made space for everyone.

00:28:12:03 - 00:28:16:13
And then years later, he got convicted of a sexual offense and went to jail.

00:28:16:13 - 00:28:18:24
And you just think what happened there, you know?

00:28:18:24 - 00:28:22:21
So unless you make time to talk about race, to talk about maleness,

00:28:22:21 - 00:28:24:09
to talk about identity, like it's

00:28:24:09 - 00:28:26:16
not that it's going to disappear by not talking about it.

00:28:26:16 - 00:28:29:20
If you make space for it, you understand the situation in its wholeness.

00:28:30:03 - 00:28:31:20
I just think that's so important.

00:28:33:13 - 00:28:33:24
And then my

00:28:33:24 - 00:28:37:10
final one is a reminder to black men more specifically.

00:28:37:24 - 00:28:41:07
And it is that, you know, there are people that are like you

00:28:41:07 - 00:28:44:18
that have gone through this, like, look at Alvey, like telling his story.

00:28:45:00 - 00:28:48:24
There's a rapper called ha DiCaprio who came out about a few years ago.

00:28:49:09 - 00:28:53:10
There's Ben Hahn, who's a BBC journalist who did a whole little piece

00:28:53:10 - 00:28:56:17
about it in the BBC about where the black men in child sexual abuse.

00:28:57:05 - 00:29:01:02
There are stories coming out, and it doesn't have to be something

00:29:01:02 - 00:29:02:01
that you bang on your own.

00:29:02:01 - 00:29:06:24
And we hope that by doing this episode, we help to alleviate the shame

00:29:06:24 - 00:29:09:09
and that there is something that you can look forward to,

00:29:09:09 - 00:29:12:23
hopefully see that mirror reflected a bit of that story in yourself.

00:29:12:23 - 00:29:15:12
So yeah, they're my friends.

00:29:15:12 - 00:29:17:08
Just do remember you're not alone.

00:29:18:08 - 00:29:21:24
Do make space for race and gender in these conversations

00:29:21:24 - 00:29:25:11
and do absolutely lobby charities and governments to do the same.

00:29:26:13 - 00:29:28:05
Yeah. Cool.

00:29:28:05 - 00:29:29:19
Yeah that's. Great. Lovely.