Safe Sex Work & Childhood Sexual Abuse

How can sex work, when chosen and practiced safely, be a powerful tool to explore sexual feelings around abuse, and take control of humour? What can we learn from sex workers about body safety and talking with children? Join Sophia and sex worker Chelsey Peach as they discuss.

IMPORTANT NOTE: By platforming Sex Work, we are not condoning children accessing porn and recognise that the mainstream porn industry is toxic and abusive. However, to prevent childhood sexual abuse, conversations on consent, sex and bodies need to happen in age appropriate ways, and who else better to share their thoughts on that than a sex worker who is also a parent! Our work will always be about platforming the diversity of survivor experiences, and some survivors engage in sex work and have very important lessons to share on how to practice these conversations safely. We might not agree with all the perspectives and on ways to do it , but there are things to learn from each person and recognise that not all survivors are a monolith.

Transcript

00:00:03:08 - 00:00:04:03
God, I wish you

00:00:04:03 - 00:00:07:03
were my sex educator at school.

00:00:07:23 - 00:00:08:21
For people who shame it

00:00:08:21 - 00:00:11:21
and stuff, it's always quite hilarious.

00:00:11:22 - 00:00:13:02
Do not play war games.

00:00:13:02 - 00:00:16:02
You want to be in war?

00:00:16:08 - 00:00:18:08
That's how we can protect our kids, is by

00:00:18:08 - 00:00:20:10
letting them have the power

00:00:20:10 - 00:00:21:15
and the knowledge

00:00:21:15 - 00:00:23:22
themselves in age appropriate ways.

00:00:23:22 - 00:00:25:02
Nobody's saying she needs to know

00:00:25:02 - 00:00:26:02
what a cream pie is.

00:00:26:02 - 00:00:28:11
Welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing a series all

00:00:28:11 - 00:00:30:08
about having approachable conversations

00:00:30:08 - 00:00:33:04
on child sexual abuse, but with serious joy.

00:00:33:04 - 00:00:35:01
Today's episode is all about child

00:00:35:01 - 00:00:37:02
sexual abuse and safe sex work.

00:00:37:02 - 00:00:38:05
And for that, I'm joined

00:00:38:05 - 00:00:40:13
by the wonderful Chelsea Peach.

00:00:40:13 - 00:00:42:22
Hi, I'm Chelsea Peach.

00:00:42:22 - 00:00:45:06
I am a sex worker by trade.

00:00:45:14 - 00:00:49:05
I do full service, in person companionship.

00:00:49:17 - 00:00:52:08
I also do online camming,

00:00:52:08 - 00:00:55:09
OnlyFans modeling and domination work.

00:00:55:17 - 00:00:56:15
Private hire stripping.

00:00:57:15 - 00:00:59:08
So just everything?

00:00:59:08 - 00:01:02:08
No not everything -It’s such a mouthful

00:01:02:15 - 00:01:05:02
So, Chelsea, I just wanted to ask

00:01:05:02 - 00:01:06:06
is there might be a lot of people

00:01:06:06 - 00:01:07:12
who are listening to the podcast

00:01:07:12 - 00:01:10:12
who are quite new to sex work, particularly safe

00:01:10:12 - 00:01:12:21
sex work and what that entails.

00:01:12:21 - 00:01:14:01
And so I was wondering if you could

00:01:14:01 - 00:01:16:06
explain to us, like, what actually is that?

00:01:16:06 - 00:01:16:15
Right.

00:01:16:15 - 00:01:19:21
So safe sex work is basically consensual

00:01:19:21 - 00:01:20:11
sex work.

00:01:20:11 - 00:01:22:05
And having sort of boundaries

00:01:22:05 - 00:01:25:10
and processes in place to keep yourself safe,

00:01:25:22 - 00:01:26:23
which is what

00:01:26:23 - 00:01:30:04
a lot of full service sex workers do.

00:01:30:18 - 00:01:32:18
So basically

00:01:32:18 - 00:01:34:08
we like to screen our clients,

00:01:34:08 - 00:01:36:12
make sure that, you know, we take deposits.

00:01:36:12 - 00:01:38:02
I kind of check in with myself

00:01:38:02 - 00:01:39:00
and my sixth sense,

00:01:39:00 - 00:01:41:00
and I advise other people to do this as well,

00:01:41:00 - 00:01:42:03
because you can pick up a lot

00:01:42:03 - 00:01:43:00
when you trust your own

00:01:43:00 - 00:01:44:09
body and your own instincts.

00:01:45:20 - 00:01:48:08
And just making sure that you.

00:01:48:08 - 00:01:48:17
Yeah,

00:01:48:17 - 00:01:50:22
stick to your boundaries and stuff

00:01:50:22 - 00:01:52:19
and don't let people push you into things

00:01:52:19 - 00:01:53:19
that you don't want to do.

00:01:53:19 - 00:01:56:01
And if you're not able to do that, then,

00:01:56:01 - 00:01:58:17
you know, perhaps the sex work wouldn't

00:01:58:17 - 00:02:01:17
be so safe for you if you get what I mean.

00:02:02:16 - 00:02:04:05
But yeah, it's,

00:02:04:05 - 00:02:05:13
I personally love the industry.

00:02:05:13 - 00:02:06:06
I think it's great.

00:02:06:06 - 00:02:08:17
Most people are looking for just a nice,

00:02:08:17 - 00:02:10:00
intimate connection.

00:02:10:00 - 00:02:11:18
And as long as you stick to your guns,

00:02:11:18 - 00:02:14:08
you will get the good clients coming through.

00:02:14:08 - 00:02:14:12
Yeah.

00:02:14:12 - 00:02:17:12
I find deposits are the best way to make sure

00:02:17:21 - 00:02:18:23
that I'm getting

00:02:18:23 - 00:02:21:02
a little bit of give and take from me,

00:02:21:02 - 00:02:23:06
and then so that, you know,

00:02:23:06 - 00:02:24:09
the appointment can go ahead.

00:02:24:09 - 00:02:26:22
And we've both got sort of like an equal power

00:02:26:22 - 00:02:28:09
balance in that situation.

00:02:29:08 - 00:02:30:03
When we

00:02:30:03 - 00:02:31:20
when we first spoke a few weeks ago,

00:02:31:20 - 00:02:33:22
you explained to me as well, like,

00:02:33:22 - 00:02:34:17
this is safe

00:02:34:17 - 00:02:35:13
because this is something

00:02:35:13 - 00:02:37:06
you have actively chosen to do

00:02:37:06 - 00:02:38:04
and put all those boundaries

00:02:38:04 - 00:02:39:03
and like you spoke about,

00:02:39:03 - 00:02:40:24
but obviously we know

00:02:40:24 - 00:02:41:22
that in the industry

00:02:41:22 - 00:02:42:19
that are

00:02:42:19 - 00:02:44:09
unsafe types of sex work

00:02:44:09 - 00:02:45:18
and there are people trafficked

00:02:45:18 - 00:02:47:07
and all of that kind of thing.

00:02:47:07 - 00:02:49:04
I think just from the get go,

00:02:49:04 - 00:02:50:07
we really want to make it clear

00:02:50:07 - 00:02:51:02
that we're talking about

00:02:51:02 - 00:02:53:06
this type of safe sex work.

00:02:53:06 - 00:02:55:12
This is consensual sex work.

00:02:55:12 - 00:02:58:00
You know, I haven't been forced into doing this.

00:02:58:00 - 00:03:00:18
I've chosen this line of work of my own

00:03:00:18 - 00:03:01:22
free will.

00:03:01:22 - 00:03:04:08
I enjoy it, I find it empowering,

00:03:04:08 - 00:03:05:17
but I am an individual.

00:03:05:17 - 00:03:08:05
And that's not to say that everybody would find

00:03:08:05 - 00:03:09:15
this kind of work empowering.

00:03:09:15 - 00:03:09:21
You know,

00:03:09:21 - 00:03:11:04
you have to listen to yourself

00:03:11:04 - 00:03:13:01
and your needs and wants.

00:03:13:01 - 00:03:14:07
And, you know,

00:03:14:07 - 00:03:15:20
I have my reasons for doing it,

00:03:15:20 - 00:03:17:13
and I'm sure everybody else does too.

00:03:17:13 - 00:03:20:06
And there are there are survival sex workers.

00:03:20:06 - 00:03:21:18
That's absolutely the case.

00:03:21:18 - 00:03:24:18
And you do get, you know, trafficking or coercion

00:03:25:02 - 00:03:28:11
in some instances because, yeah, it's it's

00:03:28:11 - 00:03:30:13
kind of it's so stigmatized

00:03:30:13 - 00:03:31:11
and underground

00:03:31:11 - 00:03:34:11
that it is wide open to that kind of abuse.

00:03:34:19 - 00:03:36:10
But that doesn't mean

00:03:36:10 - 00:03:38:07
that safe sex work doesn't exist

00:03:38:07 - 00:03:40:05
and that it can be an empowering

00:03:40:05 - 00:03:42:15
and great career choice -Speaking of which,

00:03:42:15 - 00:03:45:01
how did you get into sex work?

00:03:45:01 - 00:03:46:02
To be honest,

00:03:46:02 - 00:03:48:22
I was struggling a bit with money.

00:03:48:22 - 00:03:51:24
My divorce was taking way longer than I expected,

00:03:52:01 - 00:03:53:10
and I needed,

00:03:53:10 - 00:03:54:21
you know, credit cards were defaulting,

00:03:54:21 - 00:03:56:15
and I needed the money in my hands.

00:03:56:15 - 00:03:57:15
Like, right now.

00:03:57:15 - 00:03:59:11
Not built up over a few feet pics

00:03:59:11 - 00:04:01:05
I needed it right now.

00:04:01:05 - 00:04:03:06
And I always thought I'd be good at it.

00:04:03:06 - 00:04:05:05
I jokingly said, when I was younger,

00:04:05:05 - 00:04:07:13
you know, if sex was a job, I'd be.

00:04:07:13 - 00:04:09:24
I think I'd be brilliant at that.

00:04:09:24 - 00:04:12:13
And I just accidentally manifested my future career

00:04:13:16 - 00:04:15:21
But yeah.

00:04:15:21 - 00:04:17:08
So I ended up doing it that way.

00:04:17:08 - 00:04:19:07
But that's not to say I went in just like, oh,

00:04:19:07 - 00:04:20:18
I know, I'm just going to start doing it now.

00:04:20:18 - 00:04:23:01
No, I did research it,

00:04:23:01 - 00:04:24:09
I researched agencies,

00:04:24:09 - 00:04:26:13
I started in agency work first.

00:04:26:13 - 00:04:28:05
I made sure I found a really good one,

00:04:28:05 - 00:04:31:05
because I've heard some horror stories of others

00:04:31:14 - 00:04:33:08
and just made sure everything was above

00:04:33:08 - 00:04:33:23
board.

00:04:33:23 - 00:04:35:00
And I interviewed them,

00:04:35:00 - 00:04:37:06
and then I felt like I could trust them

00:04:37:06 - 00:04:39:08
and sort of got into it that way.

00:04:39:08 - 00:04:41:08
And yeah, I, I tried for a bit.

00:04:41:08 - 00:04:43:16
I took a little hiatus for a bit as well,

00:04:43:16 - 00:04:45:09
where I tried to have a boyfriend.

00:04:45:09 - 00:04:46:18
It didn't really work out.

00:04:46:18 - 00:04:49:16
And then,

00:04:49:16 - 00:04:51:09
the reality hits.

00:04:51:09 - 00:04:53:08
The idea is, is a wonderful fantasy,

00:04:53:08 - 00:04:55:10
but the reality is, is not quite like

00:04:56:15 - 00:04:58:13
it can be very self confronting

00:04:58:13 - 00:05:00:06
about your own insecurities.

00:05:00:06 - 00:05:01:13
So yeah.

00:05:01:13 - 00:05:02:06
So then I decided

00:05:02:06 - 00:05:05:07
to stick with it eventually and I.

00:05:05:07 - 00:05:06:16
Yeah, I haven't looked back

00:05:06:16 - 00:05:08:19
since I've had, highs and lows.

00:05:08:19 - 00:05:09:21
It's like any other

00:05:09:21 - 00:05:11:18
career you've got, you know,

00:05:11:18 - 00:05:14:18
the ups and the downs when work is a bit slow,

00:05:14:18 - 00:05:18:12
but generally I've loved it.

00:05:18:12 - 00:05:19:23
And I found like a nice community

00:05:19:23 - 00:05:21:00
of other escorts.

00:05:21:00 - 00:05:22:08
You know, other escorts do exist.

00:05:22:08 - 00:05:24:12
It can be quite siloed when you're sort of

00:05:24:12 - 00:05:26:14
working independently or even with an agency.

00:05:26:14 - 00:05:28:11
It can be quite siloed as well.

00:05:28:11 - 00:05:30:00
So you know. What's so funny?

00:05:30:00 - 00:05:30:04
Yeah.

00:05:30:04 - 00:05:31:01
When you talk about it,

00:05:31:01 - 00:05:31:17
it's like

00:05:31:17 - 00:05:33:17
other than the actual sex stuff,

00:05:33:17 - 00:05:36:08
it sounds very similar to my job in that, like

00:05:36:08 - 00:05:38:02
I work as a freelance designer,

00:05:38:02 - 00:05:39:23
it's super lonely sometimes.

00:05:39:23 - 00:05:40:05
You know, I'm

00:05:40:05 - 00:05:41:01
spending a lot of the

00:05:41:01 - 00:05:42:01
time in the house

00:05:42:01 - 00:05:43:01
or looking

00:05:43:01 - 00:05:43:24
for the communities,

00:05:43:24 - 00:05:45:03
and you really gotta understand

00:05:45:03 - 00:05:45:22
what's your boundary

00:05:45:22 - 00:05:46:17
or what's your limit

00:05:46:17 - 00:05:48:03
and just hearing you talking

00:05:48:03 - 00:05:49:16
just then I was like, wow.

00:05:49:16 - 00:05:51:03
It just goes to show

00:05:51:03 - 00:05:53:22
how much this sort of sex work is so stigmatized

00:05:53:22 - 00:05:55:16
that we won't even go there

00:05:55:16 - 00:05:57:22
to think about what a day to day is.

00:05:57:22 - 00:05:59:02
And I think that's quite powerful,

00:05:59:02 - 00:06:00:20
even you just describing how you got into it,

00:06:00:20 - 00:06:03:03
how you managed your actual.

00:06:03:03 - 00:06:03:13
Yeah.

00:06:03:13 - 00:06:06:09
And a lot of it is trial and error as well.

00:06:06:09 - 00:06:07:20
You do learn stuff along

00:06:07:20 - 00:06:09:15
the way, like not conversating

00:06:09:15 - 00:06:10:16
too long with clients

00:06:10:16 - 00:06:12:21
who may just be looking for free chat

00:06:12:21 - 00:06:14:10
and actually have no intention

00:06:14:10 - 00:06:15:13
of booking whatsoever.

00:06:15:13 - 00:06:17:12
And it's just a case of

00:06:17:12 - 00:06:18:20
yeah, listening

00:06:18:20 - 00:06:20:03
to sort of the signals

00:06:20:03 - 00:06:21:03
your body is giving you as well.

00:06:21:03 - 00:06:21:18
Because I've known

00:06:21:18 - 00:06:23:07
when I've been in those moments, I've been like,

00:06:23:07 - 00:06:24:15
I don't think this person's going to book

00:06:24:15 - 00:06:25:11
I really need to stop

00:06:25:11 - 00:06:27:00
entertaining this messaging now.

00:06:28:05 - 00:06:30:14
And yeah, and lo and behold, they never did.

00:06:30:14 - 00:06:32:24
And I was quite in my rights to be like,

00:06:32:24 - 00:06:34:14
look, I'm going to stop speaking now unless

00:06:34:14 - 00:06:36:05
you pay a deposit and you're going to book.

00:06:36:05 - 00:06:38:02
That's what this line is for.

00:06:38:02 - 00:06:39:20
So yeah, you do have to

00:06:39:20 - 00:06:42:20
sort of navigate quite a lot.

00:06:43:08 - 00:06:44:20
It's not just it's not just, oh,

00:06:44:20 - 00:06:46:21
I know, I'll just do sex and it'll be easy.

00:06:46:21 - 00:06:48:20
Yeah, it's a lot of work.

00:06:48:20 - 00:06:50:20
It's it's work. It's a job.

00:06:50:20 - 00:06:52:08
Yeah.

00:06:52:08 - 00:06:53:13
And also I was so interested

00:06:53:13 - 00:06:54:09
because at the start

00:06:54:09 - 00:06:55:17
you talk about your sixth sense

00:06:55:17 - 00:06:57:12
and I'm just quite curious for people

00:06:57:12 - 00:06:59:10
who are listening to the podcast,

00:06:59:10 - 00:07:03:02
because it's quite common for a lot of people

00:07:03:02 - 00:07:04:14
who've gone through child sexual abuse

00:07:04:14 - 00:07:07:19
to kind of lose that sense of sixth sense

00:07:07:19 - 00:07:10:17
or maybe confuse what feels right and good

00:07:10:17 - 00:07:13:17
and what feels wrong, and maybe a boundary.

00:07:13:18 - 00:07:15:15
And I just wanted to ask you a little bit

00:07:15:15 - 00:07:18:07
about how you learned to tune into that.

00:07:18:07 - 00:07:20:00
Well to tune into it. I've got to be honest,

00:07:20:00 - 00:07:22:08
I did do a lot of therapy.

00:07:22:08 - 00:07:24:18
Like, I obviously I've, I say

00:07:24:18 - 00:07:25:23
obviously it's not obvious.

00:07:25:23 - 00:07:27:12
I've experienced

00:07:27:12 - 00:07:28:23
sexual abuse

00:07:28:23 - 00:07:31:07
at many different stages of my life.

00:07:31:07 - 00:07:32:21
I don't think there's many women

00:07:32:21 - 00:07:33:24
who have to be honest.

00:07:33:24 - 00:07:34:02
Like,

00:07:34:02 - 00:07:35:16
I'm hard pressed to find one that

00:07:35:16 - 00:07:37:21
hasn't been assaulted in some way.

00:07:37:21 - 00:07:39:11
And yeah, so

00:07:39:11 - 00:07:42:21
tuning in with my body, I did a lot of therapy,

00:07:43:09 - 00:07:45:15
a lot of kind of Reiki healing as well.

00:07:45:15 - 00:07:48:03
And also just like meditation

00:07:48:03 - 00:07:49:23
and listening to my body,

00:07:49:23 - 00:07:51:18
allowing it to rest, slow down,

00:07:51:18 - 00:07:53:19
allowing to feel emotions when I want to,

00:07:53:19 - 00:07:55:10
when I need to feel them,

00:07:55:10 - 00:07:57:02
rather than pushing them away,

00:07:57:02 - 00:07:58:21
and then them coming unexpectedly

00:07:58:21 - 00:08:00:03
at like a random moment

00:08:00:03 - 00:08:01:17
and blowing up and ever being there like,

00:08:03:03 - 00:08:04:17
you know, as you said,

00:08:04:17 - 00:08:06:07
I don't know what you did if you pressed something.

00:08:06:07 - 00:08:08:10
But as you said that when you say blowing up

00:08:08:10 - 00:08:10:19
this like little bubble just came over your face.

00:08:10:19 - 00:08:12:06
And I was like, well.

00:08:12:06 - 00:08:15:06
Is she out here doing special effects now?

00:08:16:07 - 00:08:17:16
I didn't see it, but yeah.

00:08:17:16 - 00:08:19:00
Sorry about the bubble.

00:08:19:00 - 00:08:20:07
All good. All good.

00:08:20:07 - 00:08:21:09
But yeah, I know I like,

00:08:21:09 - 00:08:24:09
just tuning in to just seeing how, like,

00:08:24:18 - 00:08:26:16
I'm feeling, like, how am I feeling

00:08:26:16 - 00:08:27:22
about this interaction?

00:08:27:22 - 00:08:30:05
And I try and speak to him on the phone.

00:08:30:05 - 00:08:31:03
A lot of people don't like

00:08:31:03 - 00:08:32:09
speaking on the phone,

00:08:32:09 - 00:08:33:24
but I do because I feel like

00:08:33:24 - 00:08:35:18
you can pick up a lot

00:08:35:18 - 00:08:36:18
of how forthcoming

00:08:36:18 - 00:08:39:20
someone's being, whether they seem genuine

00:08:40:08 - 00:08:42:10
and just listening to sort of

00:08:42:10 - 00:08:43:18
my inner voice is sort of in

00:08:43:18 - 00:08:44:24
my stomach is kind of typical

00:08:44:24 - 00:08:47:08
gut, not everybody's going to have the same thing.

00:08:47:08 - 00:08:49:01
I have one friend who sort of had

00:08:49:01 - 00:08:50:16
a sort of sixth sense, and listening

00:08:50:16 - 00:08:53:11
to sort of her inner voice is sort of

00:08:53:11 - 00:08:56:13
in it, top of her spine, behind her neck. -Wow.

00:08:56:20 - 00:08:58:17
I've never heard that. -Yeah.

00:08:58:17 - 00:09:00:15
And she doesn't get like, this gut feeling.

00:09:00:15 - 00:09:02:09
She gets more of a

00:09:02:09 - 00:09:04:16
more of a sort of whispers behind her neck.

00:09:04:16 - 00:09:06:15
I don't know, it's everybody's different.

00:09:06:15 - 00:09:07:20
But like

00:09:07:20 - 00:09:10:07
most people, I think it is a gut feeling.

00:09:10:07 - 00:09:12:15
And if it feels a bit off,

00:09:12:15 - 00:09:14:12
then it probably is, especially

00:09:14:12 - 00:09:16:09
when it's in the context of someone booking.

00:09:16:09 - 00:09:18:04
If they haven't paid a deposit,

00:09:18:04 - 00:09:19:02
if they're on the phone

00:09:19:02 - 00:09:20:16
and they're seeming like they're trying

00:09:20:16 - 00:09:23:09
to talk too much about their fantasy

00:09:23:09 - 00:09:23:18
or what

00:09:23:18 - 00:09:24:11
it is exactly

00:09:24:11 - 00:09:24:24
that they would like

00:09:24:24 - 00:09:27:01
to do during the session, unless

00:09:27:01 - 00:09:28:18
they've compensated you for that time.

00:09:28:18 - 00:09:31:01
I just wouldn't entertain it.

00:09:31:01 - 00:09:31:23
You know, they can put like

00:09:31:23 - 00:09:33:04
a brief paragraph of what

00:09:33:04 - 00:09:34:05
what it is they're after.

00:09:34:05 - 00:09:37:05
I can say yes or no and I can accommodate or not.

00:09:37:16 - 00:09:37:22
Yeah.

00:09:37:22 - 00:09:40:10
And then, you know, then I will need a deposit.

00:09:40:10 - 00:09:42:01
I'm not going to spend any more

00:09:42:01 - 00:09:43:22
than that amount of time

00:09:43:22 - 00:09:45:17
talking about what I will and won't do.

00:09:45:17 - 00:09:46:12
Like you also have

00:09:46:12 - 00:09:48:01
a responsibility to read my profile.

00:09:48:01 - 00:09:50:16
It details there what I do and don't do,

00:09:50:16 - 00:09:52:01
but if you do have specific stuff,

00:09:52:01 - 00:09:52:19
just get it all in

00:09:52:19 - 00:09:54:03
one paragraph and I can say,

00:09:54:03 - 00:09:55:10
yay or nay, it’s

00:09:55:10 - 00:09:56:03
you know, but if they're wanting

00:09:56:03 - 00:09:57:22
to go back and forth a lot,

00:09:57:22 - 00:09:59:17
that is a telltale sign

00:09:59:17 - 00:10:00:05
for me

00:10:00:05 - 00:10:02:01
that they're probably not going to book.

00:10:02:01 - 00:10:04:17
I'm just looking to get free kicks.

00:10:04:17 - 00:10:05:12
Yeah.

00:10:05:12 - 00:10:07:20
We're not about working for free are we? -No

00:10:10:09 - 00:10:13:22
I find the conversation on

00:10:14:01 - 00:10:16:21
child sex abuse

00:10:16:21 - 00:10:20:01
and sex work amazingly very linked.

00:10:20:01 - 00:10:22:05
And the reason why is because we know

00:10:22:05 - 00:10:22:23
a lot of the stats.

00:10:22:23 - 00:10:23:02
There's

00:10:23:02 - 00:10:24:23
a lot of research there to say that people

00:10:24:23 - 00:10:26:22
who have gone through that experience,

00:10:26:22 - 00:10:28:18
it kind of goes either which way, like

00:10:28:18 - 00:10:29:07
some people

00:10:29:07 - 00:10:30:17
have a really intense

00:10:30:17 - 00:10:32:07
period of hyper sexuality,

00:10:32:07 - 00:10:34:14
which is when you've got a high sex drive,

00:10:34:14 - 00:10:35:12
you know, that's something.

00:10:35:12 - 00:10:35:17
Yeah.

00:10:35:17 - 00:10:36:11
That pleasure is something

00:10:36:11 - 00:10:39:08
you're seeking or your libido’s high, whatever.

00:10:39:08 - 00:10:41:13
And then some people go the exact opposite

00:10:41:13 - 00:10:43:11
which way they want to turn off from sex.

00:10:43:11 - 00:10:45:09
They're just not interested, whatever.

00:10:45:09 - 00:10:47:04
And that doesn't mean that everyone is

00:10:47:04 - 00:10:48:00
either one way or another.

00:10:48:00 - 00:10:48:24
You know, it fluctuates

00:10:48:24 - 00:10:50:11
throughout people's lives.

00:10:50:11 - 00:10:51:08
Yeah, definitely.

00:10:51:08 - 00:10:51:22
Yeah.

00:10:51:22 - 00:10:53:03
And so

00:10:53:03 - 00:10:54:15
what I think is quite interesting

00:10:54:15 - 00:10:56:12
is when it comes to sex work,

00:10:56:12 - 00:10:57:13
some people,

00:10:57:13 - 00:10:59:08
some survivors see it as quite

00:10:59:08 - 00:11:00:23
an empowering thing because it's like,

00:11:00:23 - 00:11:02:19
look at me taking control of this.

00:11:02:19 - 00:11:04:09
I don't know if you had any thoughts of that.

00:11:04:09 - 00:11:07:14
I definitely agree with that sentiment 100%.

00:11:07:14 - 00:11:07:21
You know,

00:11:07:21 - 00:11:08:13
I've been

00:11:08:13 - 00:11:10:23
sexually assaulted a couple of times,

00:11:10:23 - 00:11:13:11
not, to full, you know, without going

00:11:13:11 - 00:11:14:22
into details, full penetration.

00:11:14:22 - 00:11:16:05
But I've been assaulted

00:11:16:05 - 00:11:19:23
a number of times, and I find the work empowering

00:11:19:23 - 00:11:22:14
because I feel like I'm getting

00:11:22:14 - 00:11:24:09
not only respected for my time

00:11:24:09 - 00:11:26:12
and the access to my body,

00:11:26:12 - 00:11:30:00
but it is empowering because they want

00:11:30:00 - 00:11:30:09
to spend

00:11:30:09 - 00:11:32:09
that much to be around me and

00:11:32:09 - 00:11:34:14
be in my sexual space,

00:11:34:14 - 00:11:35:17
and I'm happy to provide

00:11:35:17 - 00:11:35:23
like a

00:11:35:23 - 00:11:37:11
great experience for that because

00:11:37:11 - 00:11:39:19
they're compensating me moneywise.

00:11:39:19 - 00:11:40:24
And that is empowering.

00:11:40:24 - 00:11:42:15
Like, it's really empowering,

00:11:42:15 - 00:11:45:15
being able to afford to eat the stuff,

00:11:45:18 - 00:11:48:06
like it's super empowering that.

00:11:48:06 - 00:11:50:04
But like it does make me feel

00:11:50:04 - 00:11:51:22
more empowered as a woman and sexy.

00:11:51:22 - 00:11:53:05
And you know, you are getting people

00:11:53:05 - 00:11:55:04
who are willing to spend

00:11:55:04 - 00:11:57:23
hundreds of pounds to be in your company.

00:11:57:23 - 00:12:00:01
It's much better than obviously

00:12:00:01 - 00:12:02:03
what you've experienced previously,

00:12:02:03 - 00:12:04:05
where people have taken something from you

00:12:04:05 - 00:12:06:20
for free, and without your consent.

00:12:06:20 - 00:12:09:21
So like, how people wouldn't see

00:12:09:21 - 00:12:11:14
that that would be linked is actually

00:12:11:14 - 00:12:14:14
a little bit beyond because of course it is.

00:12:14:15 - 00:12:16:01
Why wouldn’t it be? -Yeah, and it’s so

00:12:16:01 - 00:12:16:15
Yeah.

00:12:16:15 - 00:12:19:20
And like, you know, so I grew up in quite,

00:12:20:12 - 00:12:22:11
quite a strict religious household

00:12:22:11 - 00:12:24:15
and went through abuse and all of that.

00:12:24:15 - 00:12:26:10
And, you know, just in general,

00:12:26:10 - 00:12:27:21
a lot of the Catholic religion

00:12:27:21 - 00:12:30:05
is very like no sex before marriage, one,

00:12:30:05 - 00:12:32:03
no sex in general, full stop. Basically.

00:12:32:03 - 00:12:33:12
Yeah, yeah.

00:12:33:12 - 00:12:34:21
Unless it's for babies.

00:12:34:21 - 00:12:36:10
It's so funny because then I

00:12:36:10 - 00:12:37:20
grew up feeling a bit,

00:12:39:03 - 00:12:40:08
I guess, tarnished.

00:12:40:08 - 00:12:41:08
And I was a little bit like,

00:12:41:08 - 00:12:41:19
you know,

00:12:41:19 - 00:12:43:04
you know, in playground when everyone's like,

00:12:43:04 - 00:12:44:10
oh, what was your first time

00:12:44:10 - 00:12:45:07
or when was your first time?

00:12:45:07 - 00:12:46:20
And I was thinking like, oh, I guess

00:12:46:20 - 00:12:48:08
technically it's this, but I'm like,

00:12:48:08 - 00:12:49:16
I don't want it to be that,

00:12:49:16 - 00:12:51:07
you know, I want to reclaim that.

00:12:51:07 - 00:12:51:16
And that's

00:12:51:16 - 00:12:53:19
where, you know, for me, I started seriously

00:12:53:19 - 00:12:55:11
thinking about my sex drive.

00:12:55:11 - 00:12:56:16
And yeah,

00:12:56:16 - 00:12:56:24
I think

00:12:56:24 - 00:12:58:05
when I hear other survivors

00:12:58:05 - 00:12:59:16
or other people in sex work

00:12:59:16 - 00:13:01:00
who've done the same,

00:13:01:00 - 00:13:02:17
I like I said, I just don't think

00:13:02:17 - 00:13:04:09
it's like a million miles off.

00:13:04:09 - 00:13:05:09
Well, no, definitely not.

00:13:05:09 - 00:13:06:16
And it's the same with, you know,

00:13:06:16 - 00:13:07:17
when you go on your own

00:13:07:17 - 00:13:09:06
sexual journey despite that.

00:13:09:06 - 00:13:09:23
Anyway, like,

00:13:09:23 - 00:13:12:21
I had a very hypersexual period after,

00:13:12:21 - 00:13:14:04
you know, I split up with my ex

00:13:14:04 - 00:13:16:08
because we weren't having sex.

00:13:16:08 - 00:13:19:01
And I found that really sort of deflating

00:13:19:01 - 00:13:20:01
And I'm ADHD and

00:13:20:01 - 00:13:23:01
I think hyper sexuality is definitely a part of,

00:13:23:07 - 00:13:24:14
what I have.

00:13:26:15 - 00:13:28:03
And, you know, obviously

00:13:28:03 - 00:13:29:22
you want to feel wanted and enjoy yourself

00:13:29:22 - 00:13:31:23
and like, this part of you is so intricate.

00:13:31:23 - 00:13:34:06
It's in your center, it's in your core.

00:13:34:06 - 00:13:37:04
Like you have sexual organs and urges,

00:13:37:04 - 00:13:38:01
and yet you're sort of

00:13:38:01 - 00:13:39:12
taught to hide it all away.

00:13:39:12 - 00:13:41:23
And it's like, but it's part of me.

00:13:41:23 - 00:13:44:19
It's like a portal into an amazing dimension

00:13:44:19 - 00:13:46:11
where I can feel amazing, like,

00:13:46:11 - 00:13:47:20
why is this a bad thing?

00:13:47:20 - 00:13:48:22
Because it's like, okay,

00:13:48:22 - 00:13:50:01
someone might have

00:13:50:01 - 00:13:53:01
violated that area of me, but it's still mine,

00:13:53:06 - 00:13:55:03
like it does.

00:13:55:03 - 00:13:55:15
You know,

00:13:55:15 - 00:13:58:03
it doesn't become devoid because somebody

00:13:58:03 - 00:13:59:16
touched it when I didn't want them to.

00:13:59:16 - 00:14:02:16
God, I wish you were my sex educator at school.

00:14:03:15 - 00:14:05:13
Let me tell you that right now. 

00:14:06:14 - 00:14:07:01
and I

00:14:07:01 - 00:14:09:03
think similarly kind of going into that sixth

00:14:09:03 - 00:14:10:20
sense that you talked about,

00:14:10:20 - 00:14:13:17
it sounds like having that sixth sense

00:14:13:17 - 00:14:16:04
for yourself and your own boundaries

00:14:16:04 - 00:14:17:22
makes you even better at what you do,

00:14:17:22 - 00:14:20:02
because you're much more, I guess, in tune

00:14:20:02 - 00:14:22:07
with your clients, I suppose. -100%.

00:14:22:07 - 00:14:23:13
It makes me more in tune.

00:14:23:13 - 00:14:24:02
And, you know,

00:14:24:02 - 00:14:25:16
and if we're both feeling relaxed

00:14:25:16 - 00:14:28:04
and we're so it's an energy exchange,

00:14:28:04 - 00:14:30:03
you know, people forget how important energy is.

00:14:30:03 - 00:14:31:19
I mean, they're very quick to be like,

00:14:31:19 - 00:14:33:06
oh, you need to protect your energy.

00:14:33:06 - 00:14:34:22
And it's like, yeah, but that energy

00:14:34:22 - 00:14:36:16
also needs nourishing.

00:14:36:16 - 00:14:39:11
Like you can't just be like,

00:14:39:11 - 00:14:40:19
you can only nourish it in a way

00:14:40:19 - 00:14:42:16
I think you should know.

00:14:42:16 - 00:14:45:23
No, my body's going to react and react

00:14:45:23 - 00:14:49:05
well to situations that I want to be in.

00:14:49:20 - 00:14:52:02
Why is that anyone else's business anyway?

00:14:52:02 - 00:14:53:21
Like if everybody's having a great time

00:14:53:21 - 00:14:56:03
and they’re consenting adults

00:14:56:03 - 00:14:58:04
you know the energy exchange is going to be lovely

00:14:58:04 - 00:14:59:01
and you're going to walk away

00:14:59:01 - 00:15:00:09
feeling a little bit lighter.

00:15:00:09 - 00:15:01:20
And, you know, I've had clients

00:15:01:20 - 00:15:03:15
walk out and stuff before and I've been like,

00:15:03:15 - 00:15:03:22
you know what?

00:15:03:22 - 00:15:05:16
That was such a lovely appointment.

00:15:05:16 - 00:15:06:06
All the stress

00:15:06:06 - 00:15:07:12
becomes a little bit worth it

00:15:07:12 - 00:15:10:05
when you have those really nice connections,

00:15:10:05 - 00:15:11:07
we’re just so shamed for it

00:15:11:07 - 00:15:13:01
It's unbelievable.

00:15:13:01 - 00:15:14:04
And it's like, how is something

00:15:14:04 - 00:15:14:24
so joyful,

00:15:14:24 - 00:15:17:04
so wrong between consenting adults?

00:15:17:04 - 00:15:18:17
Like, I really don't understand.

00:15:18:17 - 00:15:21:10
And why should our past shape

00:15:21:10 - 00:15:23:07
how what we're doing to make ourselves

00:15:23:07 - 00:15:25:00
feel good and feel powerful

00:15:25:00 - 00:15:27:18
now, like sexual energy is powerful

00:15:27:18 - 00:15:29:16
and it needs nourishing, not ignoring.

00:15:31:13 - 00:15:32:15
You're so quotable.

00:15:32:15 - 00:15:34:11
I'm just sitting here not thinking like this

00:15:34:11 - 00:15:37:11
edit’s going to be so easy.

00:15:38:15 - 00:15:40:17
I wanted to ask, you now,

00:15:40:17 - 00:15:42:08
a little bit about kink.

00:15:42:08 - 00:15:46:04
I think kinks are such interesting

00:15:46:04 - 00:15:49:08
and can be really fun, playful and joyful ways

00:15:49:08 - 00:15:50:15
to explore

00:15:50:15 - 00:15:51:15
lots of different sexual

00:15:51:15 - 00:15:53:02
experiences, thoughts and fantasies

00:15:53:02 - 00:15:55:08
and all of that kind of thing.

00:15:55:08 - 00:15:57:21
But I'm also very aware

00:15:57:21 - 00:15:59:03
that there can be a lot of shame

00:15:59:03 - 00:16:00:02
associated with that.

00:16:00:02 - 00:16:00:11
You know,

00:16:00:11 - 00:16:01:20
and I'm particularly thinking

00:16:01:20 - 00:16:04:20
about the kind of like LG/DD.

00:16:04:24 - 00:16:06:04
So for people who don't know,

00:16:06:04 - 00:16:08:19
like Little girl Daddy kinks,

00:16:08:19 - 00:16:10:12
those kind of like role plays

00:16:10:12 - 00:16:13:12
or things that are particularly age

00:16:13:12 - 00:16:16:12
related or intra familial and

00:16:17:12 - 00:16:20:11
or even just like a more of a like dominant

00:16:20:11 - 00:16:22:07
and submissive relationship.

00:16:23:07 - 00:16:25:00
I can understand there that

00:16:25:00 - 00:16:29:00
there's a lot of power play involved. And.

00:16:29:16 - 00:16:32:13
I get that for some people it's

00:16:32:13 - 00:16:34:03
it's a very no go area.

00:16:34:03 - 00:16:35:18
And so I just wanted to chat with you

00:16:35:18 - 00:16:37:16
to kind of demystify that because, you know,

00:16:37:16 - 00:16:38:15
sometimes I've looked

00:16:38:15 - 00:16:39:11
at these own kinks

00:16:39:11 - 00:16:42:11
and some that I've had myself and just gone,

00:16:42:11 - 00:16:43:11
is that cool?

00:16:43:11 - 00:16:45:18
Like,am I a bit twisted for having this.

00:16:45:18 - 00:16:46:11
I just don't know what

00:16:46:11 - 00:16:48:23
What you think about that? -Yeah

00:16:48:23 - 00:16:49:07
Yeah.

00:16:49:07 - 00:16:50:04
No, I know what you mean.

00:16:50:04 - 00:16:52:07
And kink, I think is so interesting.

00:16:52:07 - 00:16:53:19
Like, I stumbled across kink

00:16:53:19 - 00:16:56:06
during my normal standard escorting

00:16:56:06 - 00:16:58:20
and I ended up doing like a kink session

00:16:58:20 - 00:17:01:20
for somebody who was quite a big establishment

00:17:01:23 - 00:17:03:08
who wanted to be dominated,

00:17:03:08 - 00:17:05:10
and he wanted it to be all done with roleplay.

00:17:05:10 - 00:17:07:14
So I really had to get to grips with the dynamic.

00:17:07:14 - 00:17:10:14
And he taught me how to do it, how to be a top,

00:17:10:18 - 00:17:13:09
what kind of things he want to me to say to,

00:17:13:09 - 00:17:13:20
you know,

00:17:13:20 - 00:17:15:18
keep the role play in in the room,

00:17:15:18 - 00:17:17:22
because I really wanted to provide it for him.

00:17:17:22 - 00:17:18:21
And I found I actually

00:17:18:21 - 00:17:22:13
really enjoyed that, being a dominatrix

00:17:22:22 - 00:17:26:13
and providing this sort of escape from reality,

00:17:26:23 - 00:17:28:09
because that's what it is.

00:17:28:09 - 00:17:31:09
It's escape from reality to explore a dynamic

00:17:31:10 - 00:17:33:18
that makes you feel that is connected to you

00:17:33:18 - 00:17:35:04
sexually in your brain

00:17:35:04 - 00:17:37:05
and obviously to your sort

00:17:37:05 - 00:17:39:03
of sexual organs as well.

00:17:39:03 - 00:17:40:04
And I just think

00:17:40:04 - 00:17:41:13
it's a great way

00:17:41:13 - 00:17:44:16
for us to sort of act out fantasies

00:17:44:16 - 00:17:46:13
in a controlled, safe environment.

00:17:46:13 - 00:17:46:23
Obviously,

00:17:46:23 - 00:17:48:14
anything in the wrong environment

00:17:48:14 - 00:17:49:09
with unsafe

00:17:49:09 - 00:17:52:02
people is not gonna be very good,

00:17:52:02 - 00:17:54:12
not gonna be very good for your mental health

00:17:54:12 - 00:17:56:24
and probably be very damaging.

00:17:56:24 - 00:18:00:02
So but when you do find like a nice, safe

00:18:00:02 - 00:18:01:19
place to do it, or, you know,

00:18:01:19 - 00:18:04:17
especially with a sex worker and get, you know,

00:18:04:17 - 00:18:07:07
that kind of role play, acted out,

00:18:07:07 - 00:18:08:22
whether that's taking control

00:18:08:22 - 00:18:10:05
of some abuse you may have

00:18:11:07 - 00:18:13:02
experienced when you were younger,

00:18:13:02 - 00:18:14:17
whether it's because you saw something

00:18:14:17 - 00:18:16:16
you shouldn't have and that created a kink,

00:18:16:16 - 00:18:18:24
is usually in their formative years.

00:18:18:24 - 00:18:20:14
That's something I've noticed

00:18:20:14 - 00:18:23:15
is something happened between the ages of like,

00:18:24:13 - 00:18:24:24
I don't know,

00:18:24:24 - 00:18:27:24
I think it was between sort of five, 6 or 14.

00:18:28:01 - 00:18:28:23
Something will have happened.

00:18:28:23 - 00:18:30:07
They will have seen something.

00:18:30:07 - 00:18:31:20
Something would have happened to them.

00:18:31:20 - 00:18:32:07
Some of them

00:18:32:07 - 00:18:33:23
not necessarily like a bad thing,

00:18:33:23 - 00:18:36:15
like walking in on your parents having an affair.

00:18:36:15 - 00:18:38:06
And then because you're still growing

00:18:38:06 - 00:18:41:06
up, you're getting, you know, sort of

00:18:41:10 - 00:18:43:05
sexual feelings about it.

00:18:43:05 - 00:18:43:23
And then that sort of

00:18:43:23 - 00:18:46:02
created a kink because it's happened

00:18:46:02 - 00:18:46:10
during the

00:18:46:10 - 00:18:48:03
formative years and it's had some sort

00:18:48:03 - 00:18:50:12
of some sort of chemical crossfire.

00:18:50:12 - 00:18:53:12
That means that is now something that actually

00:18:53:19 - 00:18:55:08
excites you as an adult as well.

00:18:56:14 - 00:18:57:18
Like, you know, like small penis

00:18:57:18 - 00:18:59:13
humiliation, stuff like that. Yeah.

00:18:59:13 - 00:19:00:16
I find it's something

00:19:00:16 - 00:19:02:24
that's happened when they've been

00:19:02:24 - 00:19:04:23
in that formative early years.

00:19:04:23 - 00:19:06:18
Usually I would say it'd be like

00:19:06:18 - 00:19:09:01
early teenage boys to like 12, 13.

00:19:09:01 - 00:19:10:04
I would notice that they would be

00:19:10:04 - 00:19:11:16
into the small penis humiliation.

00:19:11:16 - 00:19:13:24
They may have been caught wanking or something

00:19:13:24 - 00:19:15:18
by a family member,

00:19:15:18 - 00:19:17:19
and it was embarrassing for them at the time.

00:19:17:19 - 00:19:19:12
But then that experience

00:19:19:12 - 00:19:22:00
and that adrenaline rush so obviously like

00:19:22:00 - 00:19:25:01
hardwired a little kink in there -Do they, do they

00:19:25:04 - 00:19:26:23
tell you this in sessions? Like

00:19:26:23 - 00:19:28:15
how do you know this?

00:19:28:15 - 00:19:31:01
When I build a good rapport with a client,

00:19:31:01 - 00:19:33:15
it's usually that will come out

00:19:33:15 - 00:19:35:01
at some point because I'll be like,

00:19:35:01 - 00:19:35:11
you know,

00:19:35:11 - 00:19:36:03
is there anything

00:19:36:03 - 00:19:39:05
you'd like me to to draw on during the session?

00:19:39:15 - 00:19:41:15
And that's usually when it comes about as well.

00:19:41:15 - 00:19:42:18
This is what happened.

00:19:42:18 - 00:19:46:20
And this is the sort of feeling that I like.

00:19:46:20 - 00:19:49:02
And that is why I would like small penis

00:19:49:02 - 00:19:49:20
humiliation

00:19:49:20 - 00:19:52:20
I would like you to focus on, you know,

00:19:53:00 - 00:19:53:18
say if they want to

00:19:54:18 - 00:19:56:17
see me doing like unfaithful stuff

00:19:56:17 - 00:19:57:12
or whatever,

00:19:57:12 - 00:19:58:08
like they like to act

00:19:58:08 - 00:20:01:08
out, sort of like unfaithfulness.

00:20:02:07 - 00:20:05:18
Because that is stemmed from an experience.

00:20:06:13 - 00:20:07:02
And they

00:20:07:02 - 00:20:08:15
sometimes they want to be humiliated

00:20:08:15 - 00:20:09:24
about the experience.

00:20:09:24 - 00:20:11:16
They want the humiliation.

00:20:11:16 - 00:20:14:13
They want to relive that.

00:20:14:13 - 00:20:16:14
And for people who shame it and stuff it, it's

00:20:16:14 - 00:20:17:10
always quite hilarious.

00:20:17:10 - 00:20:19:24
It's like well, do you not play war games?

00:20:19:24 - 00:20:22:11
Do you want to be in war?

00:20:22:11 - 00:20:25:00
I never thought of it that way.

00:20:25:00 - 00:20:26:19
If you want to blow up a bunch of villages,

00:20:26:19 - 00:20:29:17
do you like. It's a fantasy. It's a play.

00:20:29:17 - 00:20:31:03
Like you're playing a game.

00:20:31:03 - 00:20:32:10
It's the same thing.

00:20:32:10 - 00:20:34:01
It's just sexually connected

00:20:34:01 - 00:20:35:07
and in safe environments.

00:20:35:07 - 00:20:39:09
It's a brilliant outlet and you can enter a nice

00:20:39:14 - 00:20:40:18
you know, we're not just

00:20:40:18 - 00:20:42:24
when you think in matrix and you're not,

00:20:42:24 - 00:20:43:23
you have no interest

00:20:43:23 - 00:20:46:23
in your own sexual pleasure and enjoyment.

00:20:47:01 - 00:20:49:08
Even being able to imagine expanding

00:20:49:08 - 00:20:50:01
into that realm,

00:20:50:01 - 00:20:50:08
which is

00:20:50:08 - 00:20:53:07
perfectly possible and could be very nice

00:20:53:07 - 00:20:54:07
and but

00:20:54:07 - 00:20:55:08
it's quite the high,

00:20:55:08 - 00:20:58:08
so you can have quite the drop afterwards,

00:20:58:10 - 00:20:59:12
which is where the shame comes

00:20:59:12 - 00:21:01:18
in, you know, and you almost get like

00:21:01:18 - 00:21:03:07
people who are like, oh, well, I've had the,

00:21:03:07 - 00:21:04:07
I've had the high bit now

00:21:04:07 - 00:21:06:17
and I'm sort of coming down from it and,

00:21:06:17 - 00:21:08:01
you know, you must think I'm a weirdo.

00:21:08:01 - 00:21:10:17
You must think that I'm like, absolutely not.

00:21:10:17 - 00:21:12:03
There's no shame here at all.

00:21:12:03 - 00:21:14:15
And that's why aftercare I feel, is important.

00:21:14:15 - 00:21:17:11
Not every client wants it, but I offer it.

00:21:17:11 - 00:21:18:09
And yeah, and it's

00:21:18:09 - 00:21:21:00
just to sort of reassure them that

00:21:21:00 - 00:21:22:16
what they've experienced is okay.

00:21:22:16 - 00:21:23:19
It's fine to have enjoyed it.

00:21:23:19 - 00:21:25:15
And it's also okay to feel a bit of shame now.

00:21:25:15 - 00:21:26:19
I mean, I don't know about you,

00:21:26:19 - 00:21:28:09
but I've had a wank and then

00:21:28:09 - 00:21:30:12
I've been like, oh God, I feel a bit.

00:21:30:12 - 00:21:32:10
I actually think it's like a chemical thing

00:21:32:10 - 00:21:33:09
hardwired in your brain,

00:21:33:09 - 00:21:34:18
as you said, like the comedown.

00:21:35:23 - 00:21:36:12
A little bit.

00:21:36:12 - 00:21:36:22
Yeah.

00:21:36:22 - 00:21:37:05
And like

00:21:37:05 - 00:21:38:19
you can get so in the moment

00:21:38:19 - 00:21:39:08
and then you just

00:21:39:08 - 00:21:40:10
sort of like

00:21:40:10 - 00:21:43:10
it bursts and then you're back in reality.

00:21:43:12 - 00:21:44:20
So and then if you think

00:21:44:20 - 00:21:46:06
about all the societal pressures

00:21:46:06 - 00:21:48:09
of being fucking perfect, people

00:21:48:09 - 00:21:51:07
who don't have kinks or or whatever,

00:21:51:07 - 00:21:52:17
like you can never please everybody,

00:21:52:17 - 00:21:54:17
so you may as well just place yourself

00:21:54:17 - 00:21:56:14
and make sure that you're in,

00:21:56:14 - 00:21:59:01
you know, safe hands when you do it.

00:21:59:01 - 00:22:00:15
Obviously, if you do it

00:22:00:15 - 00:22:02:10
with people you know, like I mentioned,

00:22:02:10 - 00:22:03:19
that are not so safe

00:22:03:19 - 00:22:05:00
and don't do any aftercare,

00:22:05:00 - 00:22:08:19
or you're seeking out from people who are

00:22:08:19 - 00:22:09:14
literally going

00:22:09:14 - 00:22:10:21
to humiliate you about it,

00:22:10:21 - 00:22:13:00
then you're sort of setting yourself up.

00:22:13:00 - 00:22:16:04
Yeah. For yeah. Pain.

00:22:16:12 - 00:22:18:00
And there's, you know, there's no need.

00:22:18:00 - 00:22:18:05
I mean,

00:22:18:05 - 00:22:20:13
there are people out there, kink communities

00:22:20:13 - 00:22:22:03
everywhere, you know,

00:22:22:03 - 00:22:23:14
everyone thinks they're so alone in it.

00:22:23:14 - 00:22:24:19
And there's such it's actually

00:22:24:19 - 00:22:26:19
a fucking huge community.

00:22:26:19 - 00:22:28:06
There's so many.

00:22:28:06 - 00:22:31:14
And it's actually very welcoming and open.

00:22:31:14 - 00:22:33:18
And yeah, and if you just look

00:22:33:18 - 00:22:34:12
for those spaces,

00:22:34:12 - 00:22:37:14
look for your community, you'll be fab here.

00:22:37:14 - 00:22:39:09
I think, you know,

00:22:39:09 - 00:22:41:19
then suffering alone, thinking

00:22:41:19 - 00:22:44:04
just you're just a weirdo because you're not.

00:22:45:21 - 00:22:47:04
Actually, that was one thing

00:22:47:04 - 00:22:50:04
I was going to say because, like,

00:22:50:04 - 00:22:51:07
the thing you said about

00:22:51:07 - 00:22:54:12
games is so important and so powerful because,

00:22:55:19 - 00:22:56:18
for example.

00:22:56:18 - 00:22:58:12
And just to bring it back to the daddy

00:22:58:12 - 00:22:59:10
little girl kinks

00:22:59:10 - 00:23:01:21
or any of those kind of like power play,

00:23:01:21 - 00:23:04:20
step, step uncle, whatever kinks

00:23:04:20 - 00:23:06:24
Hugely powerful dynamic.

00:23:06:24 - 00:23:08:04
Exactly. -On Pornhub

00:23:08:04 - 00:23:09:13
Don’t know if you saw in the news.

00:23:09:13 - 00:23:11:03
Yeah. -The most popular ones.

00:23:11:03 - 00:23:12:24
Exactly, exactly.

00:23:12:24 - 00:23:14:14
And one of the things

00:23:14:14 - 00:23:17:14
that I used to worry about was like,

00:23:17:14 - 00:23:20:22
does engaging in this kind of kink mean

00:23:20:22 - 00:23:22:07
that I'm

00:23:22:07 - 00:23:24:24
helping facilitate this behaviour in real life?

00:23:24:24 - 00:23:25:20
Do you know what I mean,

00:23:25:20 - 00:23:26:21
It's a very real worry

00:23:26:21 - 00:23:27:19
because sometimes I'm like,

00:23:27:19 - 00:23:28:13
oh, you know,

00:23:28:13 - 00:23:29:19
as you said on Pornhub,

00:23:29:19 - 00:23:31:17
it starts with the stepbrother, kink

00:23:31:17 - 00:23:33:24
and then it expands to like the daddy

00:23:33:24 - 00:23:35:13
little girl kink, or that it expands

00:23:35:13 - 00:23:37:04
to more and more things.

00:23:37:04 - 00:23:39:15
And yeah, I'm like, what if I now I'm like,

00:23:39:15 - 00:23:41:18
soliciting people going out into the world,

00:23:41:18 - 00:23:43:12
and then the people they're interested in

00:23:43:12 - 00:23:44:20
get younger and younger and younger.

00:23:44:20 - 00:23:46:21
And I think that's where it's really,

00:23:46:21 - 00:23:48:18
really clear to out what you said,

00:23:48:18 - 00:23:51:22
where it's a game, it's a mental fantasy.

00:23:51:22 - 00:23:54:03
And in the same way where

00:23:54:03 - 00:23:56:08
it might be a fantasy in real life,

00:23:56:08 - 00:23:57:03
it might be a fantasy

00:23:57:03 - 00:23:58:10
in your head to explore something

00:23:58:10 - 00:23:59:04
and then you actually

00:23:59:04 - 00:24:00:19
engage in the scene and you're like,

00:24:00:19 - 00:24:02:15
I fucking hate this.

00:24:02:15 - 00:24:04:10
Yeah, that can easily happen.

00:24:04:10 - 00:24:07:05
You can have a fantasy, and then you act it out

00:24:07:05 - 00:24:08:08
and there might be feelings

00:24:08:08 - 00:24:11:08
that crop up that you didn't expect to crop up,

00:24:11:12 - 00:24:12:12
and that's okay too.

00:24:12:12 - 00:24:13:24
And you've got to be really gentle

00:24:13:24 - 00:24:15:06
with yourself with that.

00:24:15:06 - 00:24:16:14
It doesn't mean that, you know,

00:24:16:14 - 00:24:18:22
you can't perhaps try that fantasy again

00:24:18:22 - 00:24:21:04
and maybe have a bit more safeguarding in place

00:24:21:04 - 00:24:22:23
for the next time you do it or whatever.

00:24:22:23 - 00:24:23:13
But the thing is,

00:24:23:13 - 00:24:24:24
if we're not communicating

00:24:24:24 - 00:24:26:24
about our needs and realizing that

00:24:26:24 - 00:24:27:21
not everything in life

00:24:27:21 - 00:24:31:00
goes perfect, same with sexual experiences.

00:24:31:16 - 00:24:34:04
Okay, then you know, you're know

00:24:34:04 - 00:24:36:01
you're not going to be able to

00:24:36:01 - 00:24:37:02
sort of reflect on it

00:24:37:02 - 00:24:38:06
and then do better next time.

00:24:38:06 - 00:24:39:06
It's like with anything

00:24:39:06 - 00:24:41:11
like it's just human design.

00:24:41:11 - 00:24:43:07
You know, sometimes the idea of things

00:24:43:07 - 00:24:45:00
and the reality are different

00:24:45:00 - 00:24:47:02
and sometimes they're better than you expected.

00:24:47:02 - 00:24:49:11
And that's the risk you take. -Yeah.

00:24:49:11 - 00:24:51:06
You know, when you sort of explore

00:24:51:06 - 00:24:52:21
in your own sexual freedom

00:24:52:21 - 00:24:54:16
now with soliciting

00:24:54:16 - 00:24:57:16
sort of irresponsible behavior,

00:24:57:20 - 00:25:00:03
I don't think people acting out

00:25:00:03 - 00:25:03:10
their sexual fantasies and desires in safe,

00:25:03:21 - 00:25:08:14
adult consenting rooms is fueling anything.

00:25:09:00 - 00:25:11:19
You know, I think a lot of people forget that

00:25:11:19 - 00:25:12:21
there is a little bit

00:25:12:21 - 00:25:15:21
of self responsibility when it comes to,

00:25:16:05 - 00:25:16:17
you know,

00:25:16:17 - 00:25:17:22
like if you think you're

00:25:17:22 - 00:25:20:19
encouraging something that's abusive,

00:25:20:19 - 00:25:22:06
only abusive people are going to

00:25:22:06 - 00:25:24:09
go on to do abusive things.

00:25:26:04 - 00:25:27:19
If you think about it like

00:25:27:19 - 00:25:30:19
you're just acting out a fantasy or a role play

00:25:30:24 - 00:25:34:05
with somebody who is not your stepsister,

00:25:34:05 - 00:25:37:08
like they aren't, it's, it's a fantasy role play.

00:25:40:00 - 00:25:41:16
Like you're not going to go back and be like

00:25:41:16 - 00:25:42:09
oh hey come here

00:25:42:09 - 00:25:45:09
Sis like no like, you know.

00:25:47:24 - 00:25:50:10
You know, it's just not going to

00:25:50:10 - 00:25:51:15
It's the same, like I said,

00:25:51:15 - 00:25:52:06
with obviously

00:25:52:06 - 00:25:53:15
with the game thing, which actually my friend

00:25:53:15 - 00:25:56:10
Alice made a really good Reel about,

00:25:56:10 - 00:25:57:09
is that

00:25:57:09 - 00:26:00:15
I'm just playing a game that doesn't make me a

00:26:00:15 - 00:26:01:16
bad person.

00:26:01:16 - 00:26:04:16
This isn't me acting out in reality and

00:26:04:16 - 00:26:06:10
and killing people for real.

00:26:06:10 - 00:26:08:10
Or, you know, having sex with people.

00:26:08:10 - 00:26:10:06
I shouldn't be for real.

00:26:10:06 - 00:26:11:07
It is a role play,

00:26:11:07 - 00:26:14:10
and that is a safe way to have that outlet.

00:26:14:10 - 00:26:14:16
Like,

00:26:14:16 - 00:26:16:12
why would you want to squash that

00:26:16:12 - 00:26:18:03
and then maybe leave it open

00:26:18:03 - 00:26:20:08
to something like abuse when we have such,

00:26:20:08 - 00:26:23:13
you know, squandered away desires or nobody

00:26:23:13 - 00:26:25:01
has any outlets for anything.

00:26:26:04 - 00:26:28:20
I.e. getting rid of sex work all together like.

00:26:28:20 - 00:26:29:10
Yeah.

00:26:29:10 - 00:26:30:19
It's just

00:26:30:19 - 00:26:31:00
you know,

00:26:31:00 - 00:26:32:04
people are going

00:26:32:04 - 00:26:34:14
to need outlets for their sexual urges

00:26:34:14 - 00:26:36:06
and it's about making safe

00:26:36:06 - 00:26:37:17
consensual environments.

00:26:37:17 - 00:26:39:12
For it to happen

00:26:39:12 - 00:26:42:02
doesn't mean you're a bad person.

00:26:42:02 - 00:26:45:02
Thank you.

00:26:45:21 - 00:26:47:08
How how does it work then

00:26:47:08 - 00:26:49:16
with creating those safe,

00:26:49:16 - 00:26:50:10
sexual environments?

00:26:50:10 - 00:26:52:19
Can you unpack that a little bit for us?

00:26:52:19 - 00:26:53:03
Yeah.

00:26:53:03 - 00:26:54:24
So when, say, if I've got a client

00:26:54:24 - 00:26:57:24
who wants to act out certain, you know, kink

00:26:58:00 - 00:26:59:04
fantasies, they might want me

00:26:59:04 - 00:27:00:07
to call them certain names that

00:27:00:07 - 00:27:03:04
perhaps I would never call people in real life.

00:27:03:04 - 00:27:04:10
And I'm like, right,

00:27:04:10 - 00:27:05:23
I need your consent to be able

00:27:05:23 - 00:27:07:22
to call you this and know that it's only going

00:27:07:22 - 00:27:09:08
to be happening during play.

00:27:10:23 - 00:27:13:06
And making sure that they know

00:27:13:06 - 00:27:13:23
they are safe

00:27:13:23 - 00:27:16:23
with me, I'm happy to, to do these and like,

00:27:17:01 - 00:27:18:09
you know, you need to make sure

00:27:18:09 - 00:27:19:09
that you tell me

00:27:19:09 - 00:27:22:09
your sort of limits before we go into it.

00:27:22:11 - 00:27:24:22
So tend to use the traffic light system,

00:27:24:22 - 00:27:26:16
you know green, amber red

00:27:26:16 - 00:27:28:11
because some people like stop

00:27:28:11 - 00:27:30:03
or like stuff like that.

00:27:30:03 - 00:27:31:11
They want to be sort of

00:27:31:11 - 00:27:32:16
screaming out stop and for you

00:27:32:16 - 00:27:33:19
to carry on and do more.

00:27:33:19 - 00:27:36:19
But then red actually really means stop.

00:27:36:19 - 00:27:37:24
Okay.

00:27:37:24 - 00:27:38:19
But yeah.

00:27:38:19 - 00:27:40:02
So I think

00:27:40:02 - 00:27:41:06
it's just about creating

00:27:41:06 - 00:27:42:07
the sort of communication

00:27:42:07 - 00:27:44:02
between the two of you beforehand to make sure

00:27:44:02 - 00:27:46:11
nothing goes out of hand during.

00:27:46:11 - 00:27:48:01
And I tend to do lots of check

00:27:48:01 - 00:27:49:02
ins during as well,

00:27:49:02 - 00:27:51:03
unless they've specifically said

00:27:51:03 - 00:27:52:08
do not break the roleplay.

00:27:52:08 - 00:27:54:06
And if they said that, then I say right, well,

00:27:54:06 - 00:27:54:15
I need

00:27:54:15 - 00:27:56:10
an extreme breakdown of what it is

00:27:56:10 - 00:27:57:14
that you would like

00:27:57:14 - 00:27:58:22
during that role play

00:27:58:22 - 00:27:59:21
so that I don't fucking

00:27:59:21 - 00:28:01:13
have to check in constantly.

00:28:01:13 - 00:28:02:16
And you're just, you're just give me

00:28:02:16 - 00:28:04:18
the red light system and nothing else.

00:28:04:18 - 00:28:08:03
So yeah, it's definitely an exchange

00:28:08:03 - 00:28:09:02
and sort of

00:28:09:02 - 00:28:12:00
talking about what you're going to agree to do

00:28:12:00 - 00:28:14:04
and what are the no goes.

00:28:14:04 - 00:28:16:00
I'm so interested in this communication

00:28:16:00 - 00:28:17:02
because it's like,

00:28:17:02 - 00:28:19:15
how does someone know what's the no go

00:28:19:15 - 00:28:21:09
if they haven't done it before?

00:28:21:09 - 00:28:23:07
How do you check that with them? Yeah.

00:28:23:07 - 00:28:24:12
So I tend to say

00:28:24:12 - 00:28:26:04
are there any areas of your body

00:28:26:04 - 00:28:27:23
you don't want me to touch?

00:28:27:23 - 00:28:30:16
Are there any sort of particular blows or any?

00:28:30:16 - 00:28:31:20
I say if they want to be, you know,

00:28:31:20 - 00:28:32:13
kicked about a bit.

00:28:33:12 - 00:28:34:22
I'm guessing you don't want it on your face.

00:28:34:22 - 00:28:37:05
Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, not my face.

00:28:37:05 - 00:28:38:02
It's. Yeah.

00:28:38:02 - 00:28:39:12
Okay. Glad we covered that one then.

00:28:39:12 - 00:28:41:05
So torso blows, leg blows.

00:28:41:05 - 00:28:43:09
That's the kind of thing that you're after.

00:28:43:09 - 00:28:44:22
Do you want your eyes covered?

00:28:44:22 - 00:28:46:05
Is that something that you'd want?

00:28:46:05 - 00:28:47:07
And then some people are like, oh,

00:28:47:07 - 00:28:48:02
just try anything.

00:28:48:02 - 00:28:49:08
And then when I start doing stuff,

00:28:49:08 - 00:28:50:17
they're like, oh, can we not do that?

00:28:50:17 - 00:28:52:11
Like, this is why I asked you before.

00:28:52:11 - 00:28:54:21
Yeah.

00:28:54:21 - 00:28:57:00
But it's, it's somebody being receptive to

00:28:57:00 - 00:28:58:23
that as well I think is, is

00:28:58:23 - 00:29:02:10
how it becomes safe is knowing that

00:29:02:19 - 00:29:04:03
the person that wants to do

00:29:04:03 - 00:29:06:15
that is going to facilitate this for you

00:29:06:15 - 00:29:09:15
is not going to go beyond what you've agreed.

00:29:10:02 - 00:29:11:14
And if something like that happens,

00:29:11:14 - 00:29:13:18
there's sort of there's contingency

00:29:13:18 - 00:29:15:04
things in place like safe words

00:29:15:04 - 00:29:18:04
so that we can stop and hopefully recover

00:29:18:19 - 00:29:20:09
the situation or whatever,

00:29:20:09 - 00:29:22:21
and then be able to carry on. If you get me.

00:29:23:23 - 00:29:27:05
But yeah, as far as making sure it's safe

00:29:27:05 - 00:29:30:05
for scenes and stuff, I always say

00:29:31:08 - 00:29:33:21
not necessarily for kink, but for anything sexual

00:29:33:21 - 00:29:35:03
like I don't like.

00:29:35:03 - 00:29:35:15
For example,

00:29:35:15 - 00:29:36:14
just for an example,

00:29:36:14 - 00:29:37:08
I would always say, look,

00:29:37:08 - 00:29:40:08
I don't like being bitten, I know some people love that.

00:29:40:09 - 00:29:42:17
But for me, I don't like biting it.

00:29:42:17 - 00:29:44:13
It hurts and it’s not enjoyable and it leaves a mark.

00:29:44:13 - 00:29:46:04
So why would I want to do it?

00:29:46:04 - 00:29:47:13
Whereas, you know, my mate loves it.

00:29:47:13 - 00:29:49:05
Yeah, she's she's fucking obsessed.

00:29:49:05 - 00:29:50:09
Like she'll come off with the nipples near

00:29:50:09 - 00:29:52:23
hanging off and I'm like, how the fuck do you do that?

00:29:52:23 - 00:29:55:19
Everyone's different. -Yeah.

00:29:55:19 - 00:29:56:24
You know what might work for one

00:29:56:24 - 00:29:58:02
person might not for another.

00:29:58:02 - 00:30:00:16
Or like, you know, some girls like being choked.

00:30:00:16 - 00:30:03:16
Personally, I've done so much research on it.

00:30:03:18 - 00:30:05:12
It's not safe.

00:30:05:12 - 00:30:07:15
Like there's no safe way to strangle someone

00:30:07:15 - 00:30:09:03
without accidentally causing

00:30:09:03 - 00:30:11:01
potentially brain damage.

00:30:11:01 - 00:30:12:19
So there's other ways to get kicks.

00:30:12:19 - 00:30:15:17
There's just no way I'm going to do any cutting.

00:30:15:17 - 00:30:17:01
Main airways like that.

00:30:17:01 - 00:30:18:05
I don't mind doing like, you know.

00:30:18:05 - 00:30:19:15
So when people want to be smothered a bit,

00:30:21:02 - 00:30:22:13
and you know what covered them with you

00:30:22:13 - 00:30:23:20
when you do face sitting sessions.

00:30:23:20 - 00:30:25:05
But I always let them

00:30:25:05 - 00:30:26:22
come up for a bit of air and stuff, like,

00:30:26:22 - 00:30:29:22
I don't leave it too long and,

00:30:30:04 - 00:30:32:24
yeah, it's just you've just got to be

00:30:32:24 - 00:30:33:08
just gotta

00:30:33:08 - 00:30:34:20
have your wits about you and also just

00:30:34:20 - 00:30:37:06
read people's cues while you're there.

00:30:37:06 - 00:30:38:07
You know, do they look like

00:30:38:07 - 00:30:40:02
they're still enjoying this?

00:30:40:02 - 00:30:41:10
If if we haven't talked

00:30:41:10 - 00:30:42:12
about not breaking roleplay,

00:30:42:12 - 00:30:43:03
I will check

00:30:43:03 - 00:30:45:07
in throughout

00:30:45:07 - 00:30:47:03
and be like, is this what you're after?

00:30:47:03 - 00:30:48:22
Is this what you wanted?

00:30:48:22 - 00:30:51:13
And then they can be like, yeah,

00:30:51:13 - 00:30:54:13
properly, can we do more of this or whatever?

00:30:54:21 - 00:30:55:23
You know, because a lot of people,

00:30:55:23 - 00:30:56:09
they don't

00:30:56:09 - 00:30:57:17
they're not really sure when they get that,

00:30:57:17 - 00:30:58:04
which is why

00:30:58:04 - 00:31:00:11
it's really important to keep quite

00:31:00:11 - 00:31:01:23
an open line of communication,

00:31:01:23 - 00:31:02:19
because that's what's going to keep

00:31:02:19 - 00:31:05:15
you safe is talking about your boundaries.

00:31:05:15 - 00:31:06:01
Yeah.

00:31:06:01 - 00:31:08:20
And you said something quite powerful

00:31:08:20 - 00:31:12:03
about starting slower and gentler,

00:31:12:04 - 00:31:14:14
like no matter what the person has asked for

00:31:14:14 - 00:31:15:21
No matter what they've asked for,

00:31:15:21 - 00:31:17:19
I will always start slower.

00:31:17:19 - 00:31:19:02
I will always build up.

00:31:19:02 - 00:31:21:10
I will do little flogs first, and you know

00:31:21:22 - 00:31:24:08
half the time the build up is most of the fun.

00:31:25:08 - 00:31:27:03
Do you know what I mean? Like building up to that,

00:31:27:03 - 00:31:29:20
you know, she's getting meaner slowly

00:31:29:20 - 00:31:31:10
and then it's warmed up to that.

00:31:31:10 - 00:31:32:16
Anyway, I think if you go in

00:31:32:16 - 00:31:36:00
all guns blazing, just kind of ruins it.

00:31:36:00 - 00:31:37:08
Like,

00:31:37:08 - 00:31:39:11
where. Do you go from here?

00:31:39:11 - 00:31:40:09
Yeah.

00:31:40:09 - 00:31:42:05
I'm like, yeah, it just unless they've got

00:31:42:05 - 00:31:44:14
very specific ways they want things done,

00:31:44:14 - 00:31:47:24
I will always build up slowly, and sort of

00:31:48:12 - 00:31:53:12
get meaner and a bit more forceful as it goes on.

00:31:53:12 - 00:31:53:23
I mean, though,

00:31:53:23 - 00:31:54:23
I'll usually hit their

00:31:54:23 - 00:31:56:23
limit at some point and they'll be like,

00:31:56:23 - 00:31:58:02
okay, I think we need to move

00:31:58:02 - 00:32:01:02
on to the wrestling now or something.

00:32:02:14 - 00:32:03:15
Because that's another thing I get asked

00:32:03:15 - 00:32:05:20
for is wrestling stuff.

00:32:05:20 - 00:32:06:20
I gathered I gathered

00:32:06:20 - 00:32:08:03
I thought, you’re not just wrestling

00:32:08:03 - 00:32:09:18
people on the street randomly.

00:32:09:18 - 00:32:11:11
No, no, it's in session.

00:32:11:11 - 00:32:13:03
But yeah.

00:32:13:03 - 00:32:13:13
Chelsea.

00:32:13:13 - 00:32:14:17
Yeah, there's there's lots of ways

00:32:14:17 - 00:32:15:24
you can you can keep safe.

00:32:15:24 - 00:32:19:04
And I think the first one is finding someone who

00:32:19:18 - 00:32:21:21
isn't going to kink shame you.

00:32:21:21 - 00:32:22:23
You know, as much as you might

00:32:22:23 - 00:32:25:09
want to be abused in the moment,

00:32:25:09 - 00:32:27:00
don't find someone who's just abusive

00:32:27:00 - 00:32:28:21
generally to do it for you

00:32:28:21 - 00:32:32:18
Yes. Such important advice.

00:32:33:19 - 00:32:34:24
don't just find someone who's.

00:32:34:24 - 00:32:37:24
Yeah, it was just nasty, constant, like,

00:32:38:03 - 00:32:39:23
think about the communication beforehand.

00:32:39:23 - 00:32:41:19
You know, if they're being horrible.

00:32:41:19 - 00:32:44:22
It's not just like a method Dom through out.

00:32:45:04 - 00:32:45:11
You know,

00:32:45:11 - 00:32:46:17
if anything goes wrong,

00:32:46:17 - 00:32:47:14
you're going to be feeling a bit

00:32:47:14 - 00:32:50:11
shit for weeks, like, oh, oh.

00:32:51:21 - 00:32:53:12
I think this is really important to raise

00:32:53:12 - 00:32:54:24
because another thing

00:32:54:24 - 00:32:55:21
that we typically hear

00:32:55:21 - 00:32:57:16
with survivors that go into sex work

00:32:57:16 - 00:32:59:10
is not everyone, of course,

00:32:59:10 - 00:33:02:10
but some people use it as an outlet to be like,

00:33:03:06 - 00:33:05:06
a man abused me, so I'm going to use my

00:33:05:06 - 00:33:07:17
power to just abuse men back.

00:33:07:17 - 00:33:11:03
Yeah, I'm not going to say that that is common

00:33:11:04 - 00:33:12:07
because I don't think it is,

00:33:12:07 - 00:33:14:01
but I'm not going to say that it doesn't happen

00:33:14:01 - 00:33:16:07
because I'm pretty sure it does.

00:33:16:07 - 00:33:17:22
But then when people are like,

00:33:17:22 - 00:33:19:11
oh, that's horrible and blah blah blah,

00:33:19:11 - 00:33:20:16
it's like where are the bodies though?

00:33:21:20 - 00:33:24:19
Like, where are the bodies for that?

00:33:24:19 - 00:33:27:22
Like, okay, there's a couple, can you not see?

00:33:27:22 - 00:33:29:04
You'd have to look at the bigger picture

00:33:29:04 - 00:33:30:04
then wouldn't you be like,

00:33:30:04 - 00:33:31:02
well, look at how women have

00:33:31:02 - 00:33:32:18
been treated for the whole for 100’s of years.

00:33:32:18 - 00:33:35:17
Yeah.

00:33:35:17 - 00:33:38:06
Not the best.

00:33:38:06 - 00:33:40:02
You know, and violence against

00:33:40:02 - 00:33:42:06
women is a huge problem.

00:33:42:06 - 00:33:43:07
But I think it can be

00:33:43:07 - 00:33:45:09
it's I think that's a small minority,

00:33:45:09 - 00:33:48:09
but I don't think it's people who are doing that

00:33:48:11 - 00:33:50:12
just to be mean, constant.

00:33:50:12 - 00:33:52:02
And I think there's a there are a few

00:33:52:02 - 00:33:53:22
I'm not going to say they don't exist,

00:33:53:22 - 00:33:56:22
but I think most of the time

00:33:56:22 - 00:33:58:20
having like a bit of the upper hand

00:33:58:20 - 00:34:00:17
that you've never had before is obviously going

00:34:00:17 - 00:34:02:22
to be very empowering if you have

00:34:02:22 - 00:34:04:10
suffered abuse. Yeah.

00:34:05:10 - 00:34:06:10
To have that power

00:34:06:10 - 00:34:08:03
handed to you by the gender

00:34:08:03 - 00:34:10:11
that may have done that against you,

00:34:10:11 - 00:34:11:15
that is obviously going to be

00:34:11:15 - 00:34:13:11
a great euphoric feeling

00:34:13:11 - 00:34:15:15
and it's going to be empowering.

00:34:15:15 - 00:34:16:05
But I don't think there's

00:34:16:05 - 00:34:17:01
anything wrong with that

00:34:17:01 - 00:34:19:05
because it's, it's consensual.

00:34:19:05 - 00:34:20:14
And as long as,

00:34:20:14 - 00:34:22:12
you know, they're working within the client's

00:34:22:12 - 00:34:23:13
boundaries as well,

00:34:23:13 - 00:34:24:14
it could be a great outlet

00:34:24:14 - 00:34:27:11
and a great way to sort of yeah, it can be.

00:34:27:11 - 00:34:28:08
It can be a great way

00:34:28:08 - 00:34:30:00
to sort of have the upper hand.

00:34:30:00 - 00:34:30:15
Yeah.

00:34:30:15 - 00:34:31:02
I think

00:34:31:02 - 00:34:32:12
whatever the motive is,

00:34:32:12 - 00:34:33:15
it sounds like, as you said,

00:34:33:15 - 00:34:35:15
safety is so paramount in it.

00:34:35:15 - 00:34:36:21
Yeah, yeah.

00:34:36:21 - 00:34:38:19
I would say that it is.

00:34:38:19 - 00:34:41:19
And you also need to like have a responsibility

00:34:41:19 - 00:34:43:18
and the type of things you're arranging.

00:34:43:18 - 00:34:44:03
Yeah.

00:34:44:03 - 00:34:46:02
And also compassion for yourself.

00:34:46:02 - 00:34:47:18
If it doesn't go as planned.

00:34:47:18 - 00:34:50:24
And like whoever goes

00:34:50:24 - 00:34:53:24
through life not getting things wrong,

00:34:54:02 - 00:34:57:02
whether it's sexual, professional, life wise,

00:34:57:07 - 00:34:57:21
anything,

00:34:59:07 - 00:35:01:02
like it doesn't it doesn't get disbarred

00:35:01:02 - 00:35:02:02
from the

00:35:02:02 - 00:35:03:21
in this experience

00:35:03:21 - 00:35:05:07
just because it's a sexual one

00:35:05:07 - 00:35:06:20
and you think it's going to be a great idea.

00:35:06:20 - 00:35:08:01
There's loads of things that I thought

00:35:08:01 - 00:35:09:02
were going to be a great idea,

00:35:09:02 - 00:35:12:02
and then it came to it and I'm like,

00:35:14:13 - 00:35:14:20
You know?

00:35:14:20 - 00:35:15:19
But that's okay.

00:35:15:19 - 00:35:17:01
And it's just being

00:35:17:01 - 00:35:18:16
gentle with yourself and being like, right,

00:35:18:16 - 00:35:20:10
okay, well, next time

00:35:20:10 - 00:35:22:11
maybe I'll find someone who perhaps is a bit

00:35:22:11 - 00:35:23:23
more caring despite the abuse

00:35:23:23 - 00:35:26:11
I think I want, like.

00:35:26:11 - 00:35:27:24
How did you go about learning that?

00:35:27:24 - 00:35:30:00
Because obviously you're describing

00:35:30:00 - 00:35:31:16
your safeguarding your aftercare.

00:35:31:16 - 00:35:33:14
It it feels really like thought through.

00:35:33:14 - 00:35:35:06
Like you're obviously not new to this,

00:35:35:06 - 00:35:37:16
but how how did you learn that.

00:35:37:16 - 00:35:38:21
Was there training.

00:35:38:21 - 00:35:40:19
Is it experience like.

00:35:40:19 - 00:35:42:21
I haven't had official training.

00:35:42:21 - 00:35:43:14
And I want to make that

00:35:43:14 - 00:35:45:01
very fucking clear because I haven't,

00:35:45:01 - 00:35:46:20
I haven't got a diploma or anything that I could

00:35:46:20 - 00:35:49:20
do, want to acquire one because I want to be able

00:35:49:20 - 00:35:52:23
to tie people in Shibari stuff like that safely.

00:35:53:13 - 00:35:55:00
And sort of

00:35:55:00 - 00:35:57:21
do a bit of more of study on the dynamics of kink

00:35:57:21 - 00:35:59:07
and domination and all of that.

00:35:59:07 - 00:36:00:06
I think it'll be great,

00:36:00:06 - 00:36:01:08
but I'm doing it

00:36:01:08 - 00:36:04:08
purely off my own personal enjoyment

00:36:04:12 - 00:36:05:08
because I

00:36:05:08 - 00:36:08:11
enjoy that dynamic myself like I am a Dom.

00:36:08:11 - 00:36:10:19
Naturally, it's not just me doing it

00:36:10:19 - 00:36:12:22
because it's a good money maker,

00:36:12:22 - 00:36:13:20
although it is,

00:36:13:20 - 00:36:15:06
but it's because

00:36:15:06 - 00:36:17:11
I've I've enjoyed it in my personal life too.

00:36:17:11 - 00:36:21:09
So it's a community that I would identify as

00:36:21:10 - 00:36:22:09
being part of.

00:36:23:13 - 00:36:26:15
And I've sort of done it as a responsibility.

00:36:26:15 - 00:36:29:03
Just looked into things myself

00:36:29:03 - 00:36:30:24
and gone through experience

00:36:30:24 - 00:36:33:09
and learned as I've gone with what people want

00:36:33:09 - 00:36:36:12
and what people think they can handle compared

00:36:36:12 - 00:36:39:12
to what they actually can when it comes to it.

00:36:41:08 - 00:36:43:05
And because, like, I'm

00:36:43:05 - 00:36:46:05
very good at picking up on cues for people,

00:36:47:04 - 00:36:48:19
I think maybe it's because I'm ADHD

00:36:48:19 - 00:36:50:16
and I've had to sort of like read rooms because I

00:36:50:16 - 00:36:52:06
put my foot in it with loads of shit.

00:36:52:06 - 00:36:55:06
I've been bullied loads, so I kind of like

00:36:55:14 - 00:36:57:13
I do observe a lot,

00:36:57:13 - 00:36:59:06
and I want someone to have like a

00:36:59:06 - 00:37:00:13
great experience with me.

00:37:00:13 - 00:37:02:01
So for them to have that,

00:37:02:01 - 00:37:02:24
I need to make sure

00:37:02:24 - 00:37:04:12
that I know what I'm doing

00:37:04:12 - 00:37:05:21
and I'm not going too far,

00:37:05:21 - 00:37:08:20
or like getting a bit on my high horse about it

00:37:08:20 - 00:37:09:23
and thinking I know everything

00:37:09:23 - 00:37:10:08
I don't,

00:37:10:08 - 00:37:12:00
and some people don't even know

00:37:12:00 - 00:37:12:20
when they get in there

00:37:12:20 - 00:37:13:23
what it is exactly they want.

00:37:13:23 - 00:37:14:24
They just want to be dominated

00:37:14:24 - 00:37:16:16
and they're intrigued

00:37:16:16 - 00:37:19:00
and want to explore this part of themselves.

00:37:19:00 - 00:37:20:04
So it's like, okay, well,

00:37:20:04 - 00:37:21:17
let's take it step by step then.

00:37:21:17 - 00:37:22:14
Unless you've got to set

00:37:22:14 - 00:37:23:09
out detailed plan

00:37:23:09 - 00:37:24:06
and you've done this before

00:37:24:06 - 00:37:26:09
and it's not your first rodeo,

00:37:26:09 - 00:37:27:12
let's just,

00:37:27:12 - 00:37:28:24
let's just communicate a lot

00:37:28:24 - 00:37:31:03
and then try and get the best out with,

00:37:31:03 - 00:37:33:18
you know, the dynamic as we can because I enjoy

00:37:33:18 - 00:37:34:15
it. So

00:37:35:16 - 00:37:37:01
yeah, I don't have any formal training.

00:37:37:01 - 00:37:38:08
I just want to make that very fucking clear

00:37:38:08 - 00:37:39:08
to listeners

00:37:40:19 - 00:37:42:18
Are you happy to share the story about

00:37:42:18 - 00:37:45:18
the head of police guy, the client that you saw.

00:37:45:22 - 00:37:46:14
That was that. Yeah.

00:37:46:14 - 00:37:48:04
That was the one that I saw before

00:37:48:04 - 00:37:51:02
So that was like the, the one that I learned.

00:37:51:02 - 00:37:53:07
So I went there and he was like,

00:37:53:07 - 00:37:54:19
are you okay with doing role play?

00:37:54:19 - 00:37:57:19
And I was like, I think I could be

00:37:57:21 - 00:38:01:05
Oh, so that guy was the head of the police.

00:38:01:12 - 00:38:03:21
He was a head of police. Yeah.

00:38:03:21 - 00:38:05:10
And in a department somewhere, like,

00:38:05:10 - 00:38:06:14
I obviously can't say too much

00:38:06:14 - 00:38:08:04
because of client confidentiality,

00:38:08:04 - 00:38:10:08
but he was obviously very high up

00:38:10:08 - 00:38:12:03
and he was happy to sort of

00:38:12:03 - 00:38:14:15
teach me about how how he wanted it to go.

00:38:14:15 - 00:38:15:06
We didn't actually have

00:38:15:06 - 00:38:16:23
sex or anything because that’s saved

00:38:16:23 - 00:38:17:22
for his partner,

00:38:17:22 - 00:38:19:02
but the roleplay

00:38:19:02 - 00:38:22:02
and the teasing and stuff and the rope work,

00:38:22:03 - 00:38:23:04
he taught me all of that

00:38:23:04 - 00:38:25:05
because I went to go clear up the ropes

00:38:25:05 - 00:38:26:20
and he was like, no, no, no,

00:38:26:20 - 00:38:28:20
that's for the bottom to do. I was like, oh,

00:38:30:07 - 00:38:31:06
okay.

00:38:31:06 - 00:38:34:15
Wow. Oh yeah, what an education.

00:38:35:13 - 00:38:35:22
Yeah.

00:38:35:22 - 00:38:37:02
But it was really interesting.

00:38:37:02 - 00:38:38:08
And then

00:38:38:08 - 00:38:39:17
they told me about,

00:38:39:17 - 00:38:40:20
you know, how why

00:38:40:20 - 00:38:42:11
they liked it, how they got into it

00:38:42:11 - 00:38:44:23
and the fact that high end job and that's why

00:38:44:23 - 00:38:46:11
I quite liked the relinquishing

00:38:46:11 - 00:38:49:05
of the control,

00:38:49:05 - 00:38:50:22
and. Yeah.

00:38:50:22 - 00:38:52:19
And then they got quite paternal with me

00:38:52:19 - 00:38:54:22
about me doing escorting and stuff.

00:38:54:22 - 00:38:56:12
And I was like, promise, I'm okay.

00:38:56:12 - 00:38:58:17
Like,

00:38:58:17 - 00:38:59:22
but there are people who do it

00:38:59:22 - 00:39:00:14
who, you know, feel like

00:39:00:14 - 00:39:01:08
they have no other choice.

00:39:01:08 - 00:39:02:22
So and

00:39:02:22 - 00:39:05:22
they are not as strict with their boundaries

00:39:05:22 - 00:39:06:19
and stuff,

00:39:06:19 - 00:39:07:14
because I do feel like

00:39:07:14 - 00:39:09:20
lots of people do push, push boundaries

00:39:09:20 - 00:39:11:07
because it's like a game

00:39:11:07 - 00:39:12:17
like how much can I get away with?

00:39:12:17 - 00:39:14:21
So but yeah, he was

00:39:15:20 - 00:39:17:17
he was the one who sort of opened my eyes to it.

00:39:17:17 - 00:39:19:09
And I will be forever thankful.

00:39:19:09 - 00:39:20:07
Well, I guess.

00:39:20:07 - 00:39:22:08
We have a lot to thank him for

00:39:22:08 - 00:39:24:13
Yeah.

00:39:24:13 - 00:39:26:05
And you mentioned, like,

00:39:26:05 - 00:39:28:01
I can't remember when you mentioned

00:39:28:01 - 00:39:29:16
in one of our chats about this,

00:39:29:16 - 00:39:31:16
some client that wanted two 16 year olds

00:39:31:16 - 00:39:32:22
What was that about?

00:39:32:22 - 00:39:33:13
Oh, God.

00:39:33:13 - 00:39:34:02
That was you

00:39:34:02 - 00:39:35:10
know, when people ask you,

00:39:35:10 - 00:39:36:20
what is the worst experience

00:39:36:20 - 00:39:37:23
experience you've had?

00:39:37:23 - 00:39:38:04
And like,

00:39:38:04 - 00:39:39:15
we get this a lot as sex workers

00:39:39:15 - 00:39:40:20
and it is annoying,

00:39:40:20 - 00:39:41:16
but there's only been

00:39:41:16 - 00:39:44:17
like a couple of times where it's not been like

00:39:44:17 - 00:39:45:18
the best.

00:39:45:18 - 00:39:46:20
And this there's been

00:39:46:20 - 00:39:48:00
I think there's been like two it

00:39:48:00 - 00:39:50:10
yeah, two experiences that I've been like,

00:39:50:10 - 00:39:52:01
I really didn't like that.

00:39:52:01 - 00:39:52:20
This was one of them.

00:39:52:20 - 00:39:53:24
And it wasn't anything he did.

00:39:53:24 - 00:39:55:00
It was what he said.

00:39:55:00 - 00:39:58:05
So there's like this big, fat, rich guy.

00:39:58:05 - 00:40:00:19
He was, you know, clean, hygienic.

00:40:00:19 - 00:40:02:08
So I had no issues with that.

00:40:02:08 - 00:40:04:01
He was seem polite enough.

00:40:04:01 - 00:40:05:24
And then during the appointment,

00:40:05:24 - 00:40:07:09
he said, oh,

00:40:07:09 - 00:40:08:10
if I had one wish

00:40:08:10 - 00:40:10:20
would be to have two 16 year old virgins.

00:40:10:20 - 00:40:12:11
And I was like. 

00:40:13:11 - 00:40:14:20
like, instantly

00:40:14:20 - 00:40:16:05
felt sick and was like,

00:40:16:05 - 00:40:18:07
oh God, I never want to see this guy again.

00:40:18:07 - 00:40:19:17
Yeah.

00:40:19:17 - 00:40:20:08
Because I have,

00:40:20:08 - 00:40:23:09
I have a daughter, like, what is the obsession

00:40:23:15 - 00:40:25:01
with taking girls virginity?

00:40:25:01 - 00:40:26:18
They're not going to enjoy themselves.

00:40:26:18 - 00:40:29:01
I don't know if anyone has ever spoken to women,

00:40:29:01 - 00:40:31:14
but generally the first experience

00:40:31:14 - 00:40:33:12
is not very nice.

00:40:33:12 - 00:40:35:21
But because you've not had anything inside

00:40:35:21 - 00:40:39:08
you like that before and it hurt so, so

00:40:40:05 - 00:40:41:16
it's like, why?

00:40:41:16 - 00:40:42:21
What's the obsession

00:40:42:21 - 00:40:45:21
with like, these young girls?

00:40:46:03 - 00:40:46:23
I just.

00:40:46:23 - 00:40:48:20
I also think this is a great example

00:40:48:20 - 00:40:50:04
of what we were talking about earlier,

00:40:50:04 - 00:40:53:08
about where the kink becomes reality.

00:40:53:08 - 00:40:54:22
And, you know, this person was

00:40:54:22 - 00:40:55:18
I don't know

00:40:55:18 - 00:40:57:01
whether or not he was engaging

00:40:57:01 - 00:40:59:17
in that sort of kink with you. Who knows?

00:40:59:17 - 00:41:01:00
Because it was just something that he

00:41:01:00 - 00:41:02:02
actually verbally said.

00:41:02:02 - 00:41:04:14
If he had two 16 year old virgins in a room, do,

00:41:04:14 - 00:41:06:03
what do we think he would do

00:41:06:03 - 00:41:08:07
when the energy exchange is actually there?

00:41:08:07 - 00:41:09:23
Is that something you'd want to take from them?

00:41:09:23 - 00:41:11:17
Is it

00:41:11:17 - 00:41:13:19
or is this just a little fantasy in your head?

00:41:13:19 - 00:41:15:00
Either way,

00:41:15:00 - 00:41:17:05
saying stuff like that so brazenly

00:41:17:05 - 00:41:19:14
when it's not in, say, roleplay in

00:41:19:14 - 00:41:21:18
a controlled environment, blah, blah, whatever

00:41:22:17 - 00:41:24:08
that does kind of

00:41:24:08 - 00:41:27:08
ring alarm bells around abuse because,

00:41:28:13 - 00:41:30:06
like, they're not adults,

00:41:30:06 - 00:41:32:17
they're barely even legal.

00:41:32:17 - 00:41:34:21
So like how

00:41:34:21 - 00:41:35:24
that would be a fun experience

00:41:35:24 - 00:41:38:18
for anyone except you on a perverted,

00:41:38:18 - 00:41:41:18
abusive level is beyond me.

00:41:42:00 - 00:41:43:05
Was he?

00:41:43:05 - 00:41:45:12
I don't know if you can actually say this. But

00:41:45:12 - 00:41:48:09
Was he quite into acting out with you

00:41:48:09 - 00:41:50:03
being younger as part of the session?

00:41:50:03 - 00:41:51:24
No, no, he was just having

00:41:51:24 - 00:41:52:11
I think it's

00:41:52:11 - 00:41:53:05
just somebody who just

00:41:53:05 - 00:41:56:05
regularly indulges in escorts.

00:41:56:08 - 00:41:57:13
Tend to be businessmen

00:41:57:13 - 00:41:58:23
and obviously he was a businessman

00:41:58:23 - 00:42:00:24
traveling, blah, blah, whatever.

00:42:00:24 - 00:42:03:21
But I just found that such a weird thing

00:42:03:21 - 00:42:04:21
to say to me.

00:42:04:21 - 00:42:08:05
Yeah, I was just like, no,

00:42:08:21 - 00:42:09:23
like, what kind of reaction

00:42:09:23 - 00:42:11:01
were you expecting there like are 

00:42:11:01 - 00:42:12:12
you getting off on shocking me?

00:42:12:12 - 00:42:14:08
Like, I have no idea.

00:42:14:08 - 00:42:15:14
Also, what I really don't like

00:42:15:14 - 00:42:15:19
about

00:42:15:19 - 00:42:18:01
that is just the assumption that

00:42:18:01 - 00:42:20:05
because you work in sex and providing

00:42:20:05 - 00:42:22:24
good sexual experiences, that you therefore

00:42:22:24 - 00:42:25:11
are fine with everything and like anything goes,

00:42:25:11 - 00:42:26:19
and it's just the brazenness

00:42:26:19 - 00:42:27:22
and the confidence to be able

00:42:27:22 - 00:42:29:02
to express something that is,

00:42:29:02 - 00:42:31:17
as you said, like very dark.

00:42:31:17 - 00:42:32:04
Yeah.

00:42:32:04 - 00:42:34:02
Like that's not a normal fantasy.

00:42:34:02 - 00:42:35:23
To have was really fucked up.

00:42:37:02 - 00:42:39:09
I'm like, no, I'm not okay with it.

00:42:39:09 - 00:42:41:06
Yeah.

00:42:41:06 - 00:42:41:22
You must be.

00:42:41:22 - 00:42:43:08
Quite privy to a lot of that

00:42:43:08 - 00:42:44:23
kind of chat though, I guess.

00:42:44:23 - 00:42:46:14
Like after.

00:42:46:14 - 00:42:47:14
Not really, to be honest.

00:42:47:14 - 00:42:49:11
Most of my clients are lovely.

00:42:49:11 - 00:42:52:19
I've not had anyone say anything weird about

00:42:53:10 - 00:42:54:16
young girls.

00:42:54:16 - 00:42:55:01
I mean,

00:42:55:01 - 00:42:56:16
why would they book a 34 year old

00:42:56:16 - 00:42:58:17
if they were lying into young girls anyway?

00:42:58:17 - 00:42:59:12
Like obviously have

00:42:59:12 - 00:43:02:12
an 18 year old or something with them.

00:43:03:21 - 00:43:05:19
You know and like the only thing I

00:43:05:19 - 00:43:07:01
can sort of

00:43:07:01 - 00:43:08:01
muster from that

00:43:08:01 - 00:43:10:14
is that, that they like the naivety,

00:43:10:14 - 00:43:12:01
they like the fact that they might

00:43:12:01 - 00:43:13:08
not have many boundaries

00:43:13:08 - 00:43:14:05
because I don't know about you,

00:43:14:05 - 00:43:17:02
but when I was younger I didn't have as many,

00:43:17:02 - 00:43:18:05
no. Absolutely.

00:43:18:05 - 00:43:19:03
They’re learning what they are.

00:43:19:03 - 00:43:22:03
If they find that attractive,

00:43:22:18 - 00:43:26:02
that just spells weirdo, that spell

00:43:26:02 - 00:43:29:08
that spells abusive that spells, power imbalance.

00:43:29:16 - 00:43:30:24
I want to have my way.

00:43:30:24 - 00:43:33:24
I actually don't like women. I want a child.

00:43:35:10 - 00:43:37:11
Yeah,

00:43:37:11 - 00:43:40:11
like, please die out.

00:43:42:08 - 00:43:44:10
Just just please.

00:43:44:10 - 00:43:46:04
Women are collectively women everywhere.

00:43:46:04 - 00:43:47:13
I just pray we're all waking up.

00:43:47:13 - 00:43:49:02
I think we all have to be honest.

00:43:49:02 - 00:43:52:07
Just do not give up the pussay to these men.

00:43:53:14 - 00:43:55:19
They fucking say that shit?

00:43:55:19 - 00:43:57:09
We don't reproduce with them.

00:43:57:09 - 00:43:58:02
It's that simple.

00:43:58:02 - 00:44:00:18
And we do have that power.

00:44:00:18 - 00:44:02:01
Can Just -It’s true

00:44:02:01 - 00:44:02:17
I'm just dead

00:44:02:17 - 00:44:05:17
Because I'm like, these are your closing remarks.

00:44:05:18 - 00:44:08:18
Close the pussy to these people.

00:44:08:23 - 00:44:11:07
Do not allow them to enter

00:44:11:07 - 00:44:14:07
Okay.

00:44:14:07 - 00:44:15:08
Like, if they're going to say

00:44:15:08 - 00:44:16:20
shit like that, like, you’re not

00:44:16:20 - 00:44:18:24
on a level playing field,

00:44:18:24 - 00:44:20:17
and there are men that exist out there

00:44:20:17 - 00:44:22:21
that aren't that fucked up, you know?

00:44:22:21 - 00:44:26:10
And those are my clients are lovely returning.

00:44:26:10 - 00:44:27:22
They're care about my pleasure.

00:44:27:22 - 00:44:29:10
They care about,

00:44:29:10 - 00:44:31:02
you know, me having a good time

00:44:31:02 - 00:44:32:19
as much as they do.

00:44:32:19 - 00:44:34:11
Yeah. And I think

00:44:34:11 - 00:44:37:06
I think again with that example like,

00:44:37:06 - 00:44:37:15
you know,

00:44:37:15 - 00:44:39:09
like naivete, kink is a thing where

00:44:39:09 - 00:44:41:19
people like to pretend that they don't

00:44:41:19 - 00:44:43:08
know what a sexual organ is

00:44:43:08 - 00:44:44:12
or they don't understand pleasure

00:44:44:12 - 00:44:46:03
or pretend that they're experiencing it

00:44:46:03 - 00:44:47:13
for the first time.

00:44:47:13 - 00:44:48:09
And I think

00:44:48:09 - 00:44:50:04
even discussing, oh, I've got this

00:44:50:04 - 00:44:50:23
naivety kink

00:44:50:23 - 00:44:52:12
and what does that look like

00:44:52:12 - 00:44:54:02
in a scene or whatever,

00:44:54:02 - 00:44:55:21
that is a very consensual space.

00:44:55:21 - 00:44:57:11
And that, that isn't

00:44:57:11 - 00:44:59:22
that conversation is not naive.

00:44:59:22 - 00:45:00:21
And so no, it.

00:45:00:21 - 00:45:03:00
Isn't because the actual person isn't naïve.

00:45:03:00 - 00:45:04:06
they know exactly what's going on.

00:45:04:06 - 00:45:05:06
And they’re role playing.

00:45:05:06 - 00:45:07:10
It's the game exactly where.

00:45:07:10 - 00:45:08:00
The abuse is

00:45:08:00 - 00:45:09:16
when the other person doesn't know

00:45:09:16 - 00:45:11:04
what is happening to them,

00:45:11:04 - 00:45:11:17
you know what I mean?

00:45:11:17 - 00:45:13:24
And they have they have not consented

00:45:13:24 - 00:45:15:06
to this kind of.

00:45:16:13 - 00:45:17:01
Yeah.

00:45:17:01 - 00:45:18:23
And that's never right.

00:45:18:23 - 00:45:21:04
So if people want to kink shame yeah

00:45:21:04 - 00:45:23:01
be pissed off about abuse in the world,

00:45:23:01 - 00:45:24:00
it's like, can you not connect

00:45:24:00 - 00:45:27:00
the two dots here? Babes

00:45:29:07 - 00:45:29:22
Yeah, like

00:45:29:22 - 00:45:30:09
we're not going

00:45:30:09 - 00:45:31:21
to stop having sexual organs,

00:45:31:21 - 00:45:34:09
we're not going to stop having sexual urges.

00:45:34:09 - 00:45:36:23
And until we make like a shame free society

00:45:36:23 - 00:45:39:23
that is allowable of sex workers and, you know,

00:45:40:19 - 00:45:42:09
outlets and ways for people

00:45:42:09 - 00:45:44:24
to sort of experience these things safely.

00:45:44:24 - 00:45:45:09
Yeah,

00:45:45:09 - 00:45:47:01
obviously, you're going to get abusers

00:45:47:01 - 00:45:50:01
who are just going to abuse that.

00:45:50:02 - 00:45:51:09
There's no way around that.

00:45:51:09 - 00:45:53:11
Some people are fucked in the head

00:45:53:11 - 00:45:55:13
and that is a fact of life.

00:45:55:13 - 00:45:57:03
And that is why it's really important,

00:45:57:03 - 00:45:58:09
I think, to

00:45:58:09 - 00:46:00:18
just be really in-tune with yourself

00:46:00:18 - 00:46:02:09
and be really strong with your boundaries.

00:46:03:15 - 00:46:04:12
I think we talked we talked

00:46:04:12 - 00:46:05:20
about that before as well didn't we.

00:46:05:20 - 00:46:06:03
Yeah.

00:46:06:03 - 00:46:07:08
With you know and it starts

00:46:07:08 - 00:46:08:07
when you're younger like

00:46:08:07 - 00:46:09:20
I don't have to touch people that

00:46:09:20 - 00:46:11:13
I don't want to touch.

00:46:11:13 - 00:46:13:08
And it starts as easy as that.

00:46:13:08 - 00:46:14:22
Just having a conversation

00:46:14:22 - 00:46:16:16
and being like you don't have

00:46:16:16 - 00:46:18:02
to do things you don't want to do.

00:46:18:02 - 00:46:18:11
Yeah.

00:46:18:11 - 00:46:19:17
And you don't want to touch people

00:46:19:17 - 00:46:20:07
you don't want to touch.

00:46:20:07 - 00:46:22:08
And they certainly don't are not allowed

00:46:22:08 - 00:46:24:07
to touch you there unless you can permission

00:46:24:07 - 00:46:26:14
when you're young, don't at all.

00:46:28:01 - 00:46:29:10
Thats the thing, because you are a mother

00:46:29:10 - 00:46:30:16
yourself. So like,

00:46:30:16 - 00:46:33:05
how do you educate your own daughter?

00:46:33:05 - 00:46:35:11
Yeah, well, I touched on it with you before.

00:46:35:11 - 00:46:37:13
What might have happened,

00:46:37:13 - 00:46:38:20
but I'm happy to talk about it

00:46:38:20 - 00:46:40:14
Yeah. Please do. Please. But.

00:46:40:14 - 00:46:42:20
Yeah, but, like, obviously kids,

00:46:42:20 - 00:46:43:24
I was quite young when I figured out

00:46:43:24 - 00:46:45:10
what my sexual organs were,

00:46:45:10 - 00:46:47:22
but I was alone in that discovery,

00:46:47:22 - 00:46:49:21
and, yeah, I didn't have anybody

00:46:49:21 - 00:46:51:00
to help me with that at all

00:46:51:00 - 00:46:52:13
I had a book handed to me.

00:46:52:13 - 00:46:53:20
This is how it works.

00:46:53:20 - 00:46:55:08
And sometimes it feels nice.

00:46:56:10 - 00:46:59:05
No, you need to be told that it's okay

00:46:59:05 - 00:47:00:15
to feel nice down there

00:47:00:15 - 00:47:02:23
and to pleasure yourself down there,

00:47:02:23 - 00:47:04:17
as long as it's in private

00:47:04:17 - 00:47:07:17
and people are not allowed to touch you there

00:47:07:17 - 00:47:08:22
And there's no secret

00:47:08:22 - 00:47:10:11
I've already had this conversation with her

00:47:10:11 - 00:47:11:11
I said nobody can keep

00:47:11:11 - 00:47:12:21
a secret about

00:47:12:21 - 00:47:14:20
from me between you two and

00:47:14:20 - 00:47:16:21
touching your privates, those are

00:47:16:21 - 00:47:20:01
you always tell mummy like there's no

00:47:20:10 - 00:47:22:14
there is no touching you.

00:47:22:14 - 00:47:23:13
Unless it's you.

00:47:23:13 - 00:47:24:24
You can touch yourself.

00:47:24:24 - 00:47:27:19
Go to take yourself away to room to do it.

00:47:27:19 - 00:47:29:19
There's no shame. It does feel good.

00:47:29:19 - 00:47:30:00
That's.

00:47:30:00 - 00:47:31:23
You know, we have organs there for that reason.

00:47:31:23 - 00:47:33:19
Not just for babies.

00:47:33:19 - 00:47:34:09
And. Yeah.

00:47:34:09 - 00:47:37:07
And I think, she was more

00:47:37:07 - 00:47:38:06
so when she caught me

00:47:38:06 - 00:47:39:17
doing it once because we have, like,

00:47:39:17 - 00:47:41:03
a sleepover every other night.

00:47:41:03 - 00:47:42:14
And I was down in the living room

00:47:42:14 - 00:47:43:16
when she was in my bed.

00:47:43:16 - 00:47:45:13
I didn't realize she'd woken up,

00:47:45:13 - 00:47:48:13
and she came down and she saw me

00:47:48:18 - 00:47:51:08
going up, and like, in the morning, she went.

00:47:51:08 - 00:47:52:20
She was really freaked out.

00:47:52:20 - 00:47:54:00
She wouldn't even look at me.

00:47:54:00 - 00:47:55:14
Shewas like don’t touch me.

00:47:55:14 - 00:47:56:20
And I was like, oh my God,

00:47:56:20 - 00:47:58:17
what the hell has happened here?

00:47:58:17 - 00:47:59:24
And at this point, you didn't know

00:47:59:24 - 00:48:01:17
that she'd caught you? -I had no idea.

00:48:01:17 - 00:48:03:18
So I was like, have you had a bad dream?

00:48:03:18 - 00:48:04:20
I kind of went in with it

00:48:04:20 - 00:48:05:07
straight away

00:48:05:07 - 00:48:05:19
and I was like,

00:48:05:19 - 00:48:06:23
did you see something you shouldn't

00:48:06:23 - 00:48:09:08
have seen mummy doing last night?

00:48:09:08 - 00:48:10:08
Because obviously I remembered

00:48:10:08 - 00:48:11:04
what I’d done

00:48:11:04 - 00:48:14:05
And, And she was she didn't admit to it at first.

00:48:14:05 - 00:48:15:09
Took me about an hour going

00:48:15:09 - 00:48:16:18
round in circles, and I was like, it's

00:48:16:18 - 00:48:20:02
okay to tell me if something's upset you.

00:48:20:11 - 00:48:23:10
You know, if you tell me, I can try and help you,

00:48:23:10 - 00:48:24:12
I won't be angry.

00:48:24:12 - 00:48:26:04
I promise.

00:48:26:04 - 00:48:28:11
And. Yeah. And then.

00:48:28:11 - 00:48:29:24
And then eventually I came up

00:48:29:24 - 00:48:31:09
to the same question.

00:48:31:09 - 00:48:33:24
It's like, did you see mummy do something,

00:48:33:24 - 00:48:36:00
perhaps with her private parts and she was like

00:48:37:20 - 00:48:40:11
I was like, oh, babe, it's okay.

00:48:40:11 - 00:48:43:11
I'm so sorry that you saw that mummy was wrong.

00:48:43:17 - 00:48:45:20
I should have been in a private place

00:48:45:20 - 00:48:48:03
doing that, not in the living room.

00:48:48:03 - 00:48:49:07
So I'm sorry you saw something

00:48:49:07 - 00:48:51:18
you didn't understand, but it's okay.

00:48:51:18 - 00:48:52:14
And like, this is,

00:48:52:14 - 00:48:54:00
you know, we do have these organs

00:48:54:00 - 00:48:55:11
and these urges,

00:48:55:11 - 00:48:55:17
and it's

00:48:55:17 - 00:48:57:15
okay to touch yourself that you do need

00:48:57:15 - 00:48:59:14
to do in a private place.

00:48:59:14 - 00:49:00:12
And she was

00:49:00:12 - 00:49:02:16
like a friggin angel for the rest of the day.

00:49:02:16 - 00:49:04:04
Mummy is the best

00:49:04:04 - 00:49:05:04
Because when you get on a level

00:49:05:04 - 00:49:06:18
and you speak to them honestly

00:49:06:18 - 00:49:09:00
in an age appropriate way,

00:49:09:00 - 00:49:09:21
you know they can learn

00:49:09:21 - 00:49:11:04
about themselves as well,

00:49:11:04 - 00:49:12:14
like they have got these organs.

00:49:12:14 - 00:49:13:20
There's no point in denying that

00:49:13:20 - 00:49:14:22
they haven't got them

00:49:14:22 - 00:49:17:06
until they hit 16 when it's legal.

00:49:17:06 - 00:49:18:18
That's just not true.

00:49:18:18 - 00:49:19:03
Yeah.

00:49:19:03 - 00:49:20:19
And then typically they hit 16.

00:49:20:19 - 00:49:21:24
And then I told not to do it.

00:49:21:24 - 00:49:24:00
So yeah.

00:49:24:00 - 00:49:24:17
Yeah.

00:49:24:17 - 00:49:27:12
So she will always be

00:49:27:12 - 00:49:30:15
sort of in a in an environment with me.

00:49:30:15 - 00:49:31:15
Anyway.

00:49:31:15 - 00:49:35:16
That means she's, she can be sexually shame free.

00:49:36:18 - 00:49:37:14
And if she wants to

00:49:37:14 - 00:49:38:16
share she can if she

00:49:38:16 - 00:49:41:10
wants to get advice of me or anything, she can.

00:49:41:10 - 00:49:43:05
If she wants to talk to me about it, she can.

00:49:43:05 - 00:49:44:17
I mean, as she gets older, she won't.

00:49:44:17 - 00:49:45:07
Do you know what I mean?

00:49:45:07 - 00:49:46:14
I know that,

00:49:46:14 - 00:49:48:04
I've gone to give her a hug before and stuff

00:49:48:04 - 00:49:49:17
and she's like, no, I don't want to.

00:49:49:17 - 00:49:52:05
And I'm like, oh, why and she said mummy

00:49:52:05 - 00:49:53:22
It's my choice.

00:49:53:22 - 00:49:56:10
And I was like,

00:49:56:10 - 00:49:59:10
Wow

00:50:00:18 - 00:50:01:13
It hurts.

00:50:01:13 - 00:50:03:09
But you’re bringing her up well.

00:50:03:09 - 00:50:04:14
It's but it's true.

00:50:04:14 - 00:50:06:10
Like she doesn't have to do anything.

00:50:06:10 - 00:50:08:19
She doesn’t want to do, it’s her body.

00:50:08:19 - 00:50:10:09
I was like, now you don't have to do that.

00:50:10:09 - 00:50:11:01
You don't have to hug.

00:50:11:01 - 00:50:12:17
So and so you don't have to

00:50:12:17 - 00:50:13:24
there to be anything for everyone.

00:50:13:24 - 00:50:15:06
You don't even have to be happy.

00:50:15:06 - 00:50:17:13
Like, if you want to be misery guts go for it.

00:50:17:13 - 00:50:19:20
People might not want to hang out with you, but.

00:50:19:20 - 00:50:21:04
How old is she.

00:50:21:04 - 00:50:22:12
She's eight now.

00:50:22:12 - 00:50:24:03
Wow. -But that happened

00:50:24:03 - 00:50:26:14
when she was six, so I was like,

00:50:26:14 - 00:50:27:20
I did feel awful, but I was like,

00:50:27:20 - 00:50:30:09
she's gonna figure it out at some point.

00:50:30:09 - 00:50:32:13
And I need to be realistic about it.

00:50:32:13 - 00:50:34:11
And yeah, the more she feels

00:50:34:11 - 00:50:37:11
in control of her own body, the better.

00:50:37:22 - 00:50:38:09
Yeah.

00:50:38:09 - 00:50:38:19
And that's

00:50:38:19 - 00:50:39:11
how we can protect

00:50:39:11 - 00:50:42:11
our kids, is by letting them have the power

00:50:42:14 - 00:50:43:19
and the knowledge

00:50:43:19 - 00:50:46:01
themselves in age appropriate ways.

00:50:46:01 - 00:50:47:06
Nobody's saying she needs to know

00:50:47:06 - 00:50:48:08
what a cream pie is. 

00:50:48:08 - 00:50:48:21
at 6

00:50:50:00 - 00:50:51:21
God. Yeah, yeah

00:50:51:21 - 00:50:53:10
like no one's fucking saying that.

00:50:53:10 - 00:50:55:07
Do you know what I mean?

00:50:55:07 - 00:50:56:12
But I mean, that's it.

00:50:56:12 - 00:50:58:03
I've got to inject a bit of comedy there

00:50:58:03 - 00:50:59:14
because people like, oh, how can you do it?

00:50:59:14 - 00:51:00:07
It's like, well, obviously

00:51:00:07 - 00:51:01:09
don't talk about cream pies.

00:51:01:09 - 00:51:02:24
In front of your 6 year old. Yeah.

00:51:02:24 - 00:51:06:04
No -Their bodies and how feeling good is okay.

00:51:06:18 - 00:51:08:13
But do it privately.

00:51:08:13 - 00:51:11:08
And also like something you mentioned before -It’s not rocket science

00:51:11:08 - 00:51:12:19
No, not at all.

00:51:12:19 - 00:51:14:13
And something you mentioned before as well.

00:51:14:13 - 00:51:17:13
It's like naming body parts for what they are.

00:51:18:02 - 00:51:19:08
Yeah.

00:51:19:08 - 00:51:20:19
100% like your vagina.

00:51:20:19 - 00:51:22:14
Your vulva

00:51:22:14 - 00:51:24:11
you know, that's what the inside bit is

00:51:24:19 - 00:51:26:16
she's asked me about it and I've told her.

00:51:26:16 - 00:51:27:16
Yeah.

00:51:27:16 - 00:51:28:11
And. Yeah, like, I'm

00:51:28:11 - 00:51:29:20
not going to call it a flower.

00:51:29:20 - 00:51:32:06
Why the fuck would I call my fanny a flower?

00:51:33:24 - 00:51:36:12
Like, that's how abuse, gets missed

00:51:36:12 - 00:51:37:17
It's so true, though,

00:51:37:17 - 00:51:39:14
because I've been doing some trainings

00:51:39:14 - 00:51:41:09
recently with the Child Sex Abuse Center,

00:51:41:09 - 00:51:43:13
and they're like so often

00:51:43:13 - 00:51:45:00
because the child doesn't have the language

00:51:45:00 - 00:51:46:04
to equip themselves

00:51:46:04 - 00:51:47:22
and they're being called, it's a flower

00:51:47:22 - 00:51:50:01
or a sweetie or whatever it is.

00:51:50:01 - 00:51:51:05
Abuse gets really missed

00:51:51:05 - 00:51:51:24
because you could be like,

00:51:51:24 - 00:51:53:20
oh, I got given a sweetie,

00:51:53:20 - 00:51:55:20
or someone picked me a flower

00:51:55:20 - 00:51:57:14
and you just think, oh, that's cute, but not

00:51:57:14 - 00:51:59:18
you're not realizing what that actually means.

00:51:59:18 - 00:52:01:08
And so sometimes for the kid, it's like,

00:52:01:08 - 00:52:02:17
oh, but you said this was okay

00:52:02:17 - 00:52:04:08
because I was telling you

00:52:04:08 - 00:52:05:09
that my parts were being

00:52:05:09 - 00:52:05:18
touched,

00:52:05:18 - 00:52:07:01
but you just hear, oh,

00:52:07:01 - 00:52:09:15
flower, sweetie, so it can feel like

00:52:09:15 - 00:52:10:14
to the child that you're

00:52:10:14 - 00:52:11:19
condoning the abuse as well.

00:52:11:19 - 00:52:13:08
It's so dangerous.

00:52:13:08 - 00:52:14:06
Exactly.

00:52:14:06 - 00:52:15:24
So she knows what a vagina is.

00:52:15:24 - 00:52:17:13
She knows what a vulva is,

00:52:17:13 - 00:52:19:05
or we call it like a fanny.

00:52:19:05 - 00:52:21:00
Or a foof.

00:52:21:00 - 00:52:23:19
But that's not taken. That's not calling.

00:52:23:19 - 00:52:25:09
It's something completely different.

00:52:25:09 - 00:52:27:21
But also you've given her the names

00:52:27:21 - 00:52:29:11
of what it actually is as well.

00:52:29:11 - 00:52:30:16
What it actually is like.

00:52:30:16 - 00:52:32:08
Everyone can figure out what that is.

00:52:32:08 - 00:52:35:09
If somebody had touched her foof or her

00:52:35:13 - 00:52:36:01
like she doesn't

00:52:36:01 - 00:52:37:10
really say things like vulva or

00:52:37:10 - 00:52:40:04
vagina is quite a quite fucking mouthful.

00:52:40:04 - 00:52:42:01
But a fanny or foof,

00:52:42:01 - 00:52:44:01
that's pretty easy for a kid to say,

00:52:44:01 - 00:52:45:09
and everybody else knows exactly

00:52:45:09 - 00:52:47:01
what they mean. So,

00:52:48:03 - 00:52:50:07
but yeah. So,

00:52:50:07 - 00:52:52:08
I'm hoping she's going to grow up feeling

00:52:52:08 - 00:52:55:08
like she doesn't have to have shame around that

00:52:55:11 - 00:52:57:02
and that she doesn't have to ever

00:52:57:02 - 00:52:58:07
have anyone touch her, there who

00:52:58:07 - 00:53:00:00
she doesn't want it to.

00:53:00:00 - 00:53:01:02
And that includes growing up,

00:53:01:02 - 00:53:03:21
learning about boyfriends and stuff, all of that.

00:53:03:21 - 00:53:05:09
SoI can’t fucking wait

00:53:05:09 - 00:53:07:01
But like.

00:53:07:01 - 00:53:09:06
Good luck to you, my hun, good luck.

00:53:09:06 - 00:53:10:02
But all I'm going

00:53:10:02 - 00:53:10:15
to say is

00:53:10:15 - 00:53:12:02
with what you've said, it sounds like you're

00:53:12:02 - 00:53:14:09
giving her an education that we all needed.

00:53:14:09 - 00:53:17:22
And given your actual job that they go one in hand.

00:53:17:22 - 00:53:19:08
So -Exactly.

00:53:19:08 - 00:53:20:01
And like loads of people

00:53:20:01 - 00:53:21:15
but I do get this question a lot.

00:53:21:15 - 00:53:22:11
Like, what are you going to do

00:53:22:11 - 00:53:25:11
if she finds out like she does kind of know,

00:53:25:18 - 00:53:28:11
like she saw me doing like all my tests

00:53:28:11 - 00:53:28:23
and stuff.

00:53:28:23 - 00:53:30:12
I had to test it out and things.

00:53:30:12 - 00:53:31:16
And she's like, what? It was it?

00:53:31:16 - 00:53:33:23
I was like, this is my sexual health test kit.

00:53:33:23 - 00:53:36:15
I have to do every three, four weeks.

00:53:36:15 - 00:53:37:23
She's like, what's that?

00:53:37:23 - 00:53:40:14
And I was like, well, mummy for work

00:53:40:14 - 00:53:41:24
does does sex.

00:53:41:24 - 00:53:44:10
I provide nice intimate experiences

00:53:45:11 - 00:53:46:21
and lots of people don't like that,

00:53:46:21 - 00:53:49:04
but it's actually a very worthwhile job.

00:53:49:04 - 00:53:51:03
So I'm trying to say it like it does.

00:53:51:03 - 00:53:52:18
It doesn't have to be vulgar language.

00:53:52:18 - 00:53:54:08
It doesn't have to be

00:53:54:08 - 00:53:55:13
like, it's how you frame it.

00:53:55:13 - 00:53:57:16
Kids are little learning things

00:53:57:16 - 00:53:58:13
and they're like, oh,

00:53:58:13 - 00:53:59:08
she's going to get bullied

00:53:59:08 - 00:54:00:07
or she's going to get bullied.

00:54:00:07 - 00:54:01:06
Whatever happens.

00:54:01:06 - 00:54:03:18
I'm like, first of all, she's my kid.

00:54:03:18 - 00:54:05:01
So she's probably neurodivergent.

00:54:05:01 - 00:54:06:19
She's absolutely going to get fucking bullied.

00:54:06:19 - 00:54:09:03
Let's just make that clear

00:54:09:03 - 00:54:10:00
Sorry.

00:54:10:00 - 00:54:11:22
But like,

00:54:11:22 - 00:54:12:05
you know,

00:54:12:05 - 00:54:13:06
we are kind of like a little bit

00:54:13:06 - 00:54:15:24
awkward in our sort of early years.

00:54:15:24 - 00:54:16:24
And it's

00:54:16:24 - 00:54:18:12
we don't kind of operate

00:54:18:12 - 00:54:21:05
the same way as everybody else and kids.

00:54:21:05 - 00:54:22:18
That's kind of how they learn as well.

00:54:22:18 - 00:54:23:03
They're kind of

00:54:23:03 - 00:54:24:11
they're fucking mean to each other.

00:54:25:10 - 00:54:26:13
Like they're little humans

00:54:26:13 - 00:54:27:16
learning to be humans.

00:54:27:16 - 00:54:28:20
So if you're just teaching them

00:54:28:20 - 00:54:30:17
to like, be resilient

00:54:30:17 - 00:54:32:07
and to talk to you,

00:54:32:07 - 00:54:33:21
then they'll be better equipped.

00:54:33:21 - 00:54:34:24
It's like everybody wants

00:54:34:24 - 00:54:36:00
to just protect their kids

00:54:36:00 - 00:54:37:10
from the world and all its dangers.

00:54:37:10 - 00:54:39:07
That's never going to happen.

00:54:39:07 - 00:54:41:14
The better off just equipping them

00:54:41:14 - 00:54:43:03
and showing them that you're there

00:54:43:03 - 00:54:44:07
constant, and you're always going

00:54:44:07 - 00:54:46:08
to be there for them, even when you have,

00:54:46:08 - 00:54:47:06
you know,

00:54:47:06 - 00:54:48:20
the complete upside down moments

00:54:48:20 - 00:54:51:02
where everything feels shit.

00:54:51:02 - 00:54:52:18
Like they're going to get that too.

00:54:52:18 - 00:54:53:14
Yeah.

00:54:53:14 - 00:54:55:19
And actually like again going

00:54:55:19 - 00:54:56:17
into the abuse stuff.

00:54:56:17 - 00:54:57:19
But like

00:54:57:19 - 00:54:59:16
if a kid is equipped with that knowledge

00:54:59:16 - 00:55:00:18
that you're there for them

00:55:00:18 - 00:55:01:03
and that you're

00:55:01:03 - 00:55:03:07
having these over open conversations

00:55:03:07 - 00:55:05:04
that frequently and often. Yeah.

00:55:05:04 - 00:55:07:07
You know, it's something I've said to my partner

00:55:07:07 - 00:55:10:11
so much, I was like, if when we have children,

00:55:10:11 - 00:55:11:12
like we are going

00:55:11:12 - 00:55:12:12
to be having these conversations

00:55:12:12 - 00:55:13:18
with them so early in an age

00:55:13:18 - 00:55:15:08
appropriate way, as you said.

00:55:15:08 - 00:55:16:08
The appropriate way.

00:55:16:08 - 00:55:18:06
Exactly. -We don’t need to talk about cream pies

00:55:18:06 - 00:55:19:23
There's no cream pies involved

00:55:19:23 - 00:55:22:02
unless it's with an apple and it's for dessert.

00:55:22:02 - 00:55:22:22
But you know what I mean.

00:55:22:22 - 00:55:25:15
Like, yeah, no one's having that conversation.

00:55:25:15 - 00:55:26:10
But we are

00:55:26:10 - 00:55:27:00
going to start that

00:55:27:00 - 00:55:28:23
really young because one,

00:55:28:23 - 00:55:30:18
it makes them less likely to be abused.

00:55:30:18 - 00:55:31:13
Like we know

00:55:31:13 - 00:55:33:15
we've we've seen from interviews with abusers,

00:55:33:15 - 00:55:35:08
like they're much more likely to target

00:55:35:08 - 00:55:36:15
a child who's more unaware.

00:55:36:15 - 00:55:38:06
And hasn’t had that conversation.

00:55:38:06 - 00:55:38:16
Yeah.

00:55:38:16 - 00:55:40:11
Just having you

00:55:40:11 - 00:55:41:14
as like a safe space,

00:55:41:14 - 00:55:43:07
rather than chastising kids

00:55:43:07 - 00:55:44:18
and knowing that they know

00:55:44:18 - 00:55:46:12
about boundaries and stuff.

00:55:46:12 - 00:55:49:01
Abusers are far less likely

00:55:49:01 - 00:55:50:24
to to go for your child

00:55:50:24 - 00:55:52:05
if they're aware that they know

00:55:52:05 - 00:55:53:11
about boundaries and people

00:55:53:11 - 00:55:55:04
not being allowed to touch their bodies.

00:55:56:04 - 00:55:57:11
And, you know, an abuse does

00:55:57:11 - 00:55:59:06
tend to start with people grooming.

00:55:59:06 - 00:56:00:01
So they're going to end up

00:56:00:01 - 00:56:01:21
speaking to the parents at some point.

00:56:01:21 - 00:56:03:15
Yeah, they're 90%

00:56:03:15 - 00:56:04:24
likely to be the people, you know.

00:56:04:24 - 00:56:05:06
Yeah.

00:56:05:06 - 00:56:06:12
Which is why it's important to be like,

00:56:06:12 - 00:56:09:12
yeah, no, my child understands boundaries.

00:56:09:15 - 00:56:11:03
And she doesn't have to hug anyone.

00:56:11:03 - 00:56:12:13
She doesn't want a hug. Yeah.

00:56:12:13 - 00:56:14:10
This is such a powerful way to start.

00:56:14:10 - 00:56:15:12
And the number of survivors.

00:56:15:12 - 00:56:17:00
You've told me that personally as well.

00:56:17:00 - 00:56:18:21
Like when they bring up their children

00:56:18:21 - 00:56:20:13
the child isn't just going to hug anyone

00:56:20:13 - 00:56:21:12
they like because that

00:56:21:12 - 00:56:23:05
opens up an open door, like. Yeah.

00:56:23:05 - 00:56:25:02
Or like when people are like, oh, she's shy.

00:56:25:02 - 00:56:25:16
I'm like,

00:56:25:16 - 00:56:27:21
yeah, now I've brought her up to be that way.

00:56:29:01 - 00:56:31:19
She doesn’t have to.

00:56:31:19 - 00:56:33:17
She doesn't have to hug anyone.

00:56:33:17 - 00:56:35:16
She doesn't want to or talk to anyone.

00:56:35:16 - 00:56:37:10
She doesn't want

00:56:37:10 - 00:56:39:06
Oh what a great mum.

00:56:39:06 - 00:56:40:08
What a great mum.

00:56:42:16 - 00:56:44:00
Obviously we've talked about the openness

00:56:44:00 - 00:56:45:06
of these conversations. Right.

00:56:45:06 - 00:56:47:07
But as you said

00:56:47:07 - 00:56:48:18
way back at the beginning,

00:56:48:18 - 00:56:49:15
the fact that there was

00:56:49:15 - 00:56:51:19
so much stigma around sex work

00:56:51:19 - 00:56:54:08
and around sex in general

00:56:54:08 - 00:56:56:13
makes it much more likely for abuse to pertain.

00:56:56:13 - 00:56:58:04
So I just wanted to have a bit of a discussion

00:56:58:04 - 00:57:01:02
about where you stand on sex work.

00:57:01:02 - 00:57:01:11
Yeah.

00:57:01:11 - 00:57:04:11
So I believe we need full decriminalization.

00:57:05:09 - 00:57:08:04
I think having it criminalized

00:57:08:04 - 00:57:09:24
just leaves it open to abuse

00:57:09:24 - 00:57:12:11
because people are far less likely to report

00:57:12:11 - 00:57:15:11
things like trafficking, child sex trafficking,

00:57:16:15 - 00:57:19:09
or just trafficking of adults in general.

00:57:19:09 - 00:57:20:04
Because people are

00:57:20:04 - 00:57:22:08
too scared that they're going to face

00:57:22:08 - 00:57:25:13
not only stigma, but actual destitution,

00:57:25:13 - 00:57:27:08
deportation, things like that.

00:57:27:08 - 00:57:27:14
You know,

00:57:27:14 - 00:57:28:08
a lot of people who are

00:57:28:08 - 00:57:30:15
trafficked are from abroad,

00:57:30:15 - 00:57:32:07
and they came on a promise

00:57:32:07 - 00:57:33:12
a lot of the time that they're going

00:57:33:12 - 00:57:34:19
to get to stay in this country

00:57:34:19 - 00:57:37:16
and like reporting what happened to them

00:57:37:16 - 00:57:39:20
could mean the end of that,

00:57:39:20 - 00:57:42:03
along with, you know, maybe not

00:57:42:03 - 00:57:44:04
the end of their abuse, going back to more abuse.

00:57:44:04 - 00:57:46:20
So if there was

00:57:46:20 - 00:57:49:01
decriminalization, it would be far easier

00:57:49:01 - 00:57:50:17
for people to report.

00:57:50:17 - 00:57:52:05
It wouldn't be as easy for criminals

00:57:52:05 - 00:57:56:02
to move through it and just abuse the system.

00:57:57:17 - 00:57:58:17
And yeah,

00:57:58:17 - 00:58:01:24
like, it would just be another job

00:58:02:13 - 00:58:04:05
that everybody obviously

00:58:04:05 - 00:58:07:03
needs to respect each other in.

00:58:07:03 - 00:58:08:16
Because that's the thing you said to me.

00:58:08:16 - 00:58:10:02
And I'll please repeat this back.

00:58:10:02 - 00:58:10:14
But you said,

00:58:10:14 - 00:58:14:00
like every industry has, you know, troubles in

00:58:14:00 - 00:58:15:07
in that it does. Yeah.

00:58:15:07 - 00:58:16:16
Like we don't get rid of

00:58:16:16 - 00:58:19:14
the construction industry because there are

00:58:19:14 - 00:58:21:15
trafficked people into construction,

00:58:21:15 - 00:58:23:01
which there definitely are.

00:58:23:01 - 00:58:24:20
Absolutely. Yeah, 100%.

00:58:24:20 - 00:58:26:06
There was a place down the road

00:58:26:06 - 00:58:27:14
not that long ago,

00:58:27:14 - 00:58:30:14
a whole farm, just a full on slaves,

00:58:30:22 - 00:58:33:22
kept in squalor, not paid, not fed properly.

00:58:33:22 - 00:58:36:17
Nothing like have we gotten rid of farming?

00:58:36:17 - 00:58:38:10
And the argument always get back to that

00:58:38:10 - 00:58:40:11
is, Well, that's actually

00:58:40:11 - 00:58:42:18
contribute to society like

00:58:42:18 - 00:58:45:21
human needs of housing is one human need.

00:58:46:10 - 00:58:48:14
We also need intimacy.

00:58:48:14 - 00:58:50:07
Absolutely.

00:58:50:07 - 00:58:52:15
Like you can't have one human need

00:58:52:15 - 00:58:54:03
being more important than another.

00:58:54:03 - 00:58:56:07
Like it's just not true.

00:58:56:07 - 00:58:59:07
You know, whether you are rich or poor,

00:58:59:13 - 00:59:01:17
if you were an abuser

00:59:01:17 - 00:59:03:00
and you haven't got outlets.

00:59:05:04 - 00:59:06:20
It's going to happen, isn't it?

00:59:06:20 - 00:59:07:11
You know, what I mean?

00:59:07:11 - 00:59:11:05
And if there's shame and, yeah, criminalization

00:59:11:05 - 00:59:14:05
around it, it just pushes it further underground.

00:59:14:09 - 00:59:15:06
It really does.

00:59:15:06 - 00:59:18:06
And yeah, it should be just

00:59:18:24 - 00:59:21:11
just a job access what it is.

00:59:21:11 - 00:59:22:22
It's a job.

00:59:22:22 - 00:59:23:09
Chelsea,

00:59:23:09 - 00:59:24:24
can you help us understand

00:59:24:24 - 00:59:27:07
when you say decriminalize sex work.

00:59:27:07 - 00:59:28:15
What does that mean?

00:59:28:15 - 00:59:29:02
Because like,

00:59:29:02 - 00:59:32:05
is what you do illegal or just help us know.

00:59:32:05 - 00:59:34:19
So what do is not illegal in the UK.

00:59:34:19 - 00:59:37:02
So I am a prostitute in the UK.

00:59:37:02 - 00:59:40:01
Basically I am an escort companion.

00:59:40:01 - 00:59:42:00
However you want to put it, prostitution.

00:59:42:00 - 00:59:43:05
I find quite a derogatory term.

00:59:43:05 - 00:59:44:18
I don't really like being called that.

00:59:44:18 - 00:59:47:18
But you know, the loophole is

00:59:47:19 - 00:59:48:09
what happens

00:59:48:09 - 00:59:50:12
beyond the meeting point of two companions

00:59:50:12 - 00:59:53:00
between two consenting adults,

00:59:53:00 - 00:59:56:00
whereas prostitution is more

00:59:56:01 - 00:59:57:12
the exchange of money for sex.

00:59:57:12 - 00:59:58:19
Whereas actually, I could withhold that

00:59:58:19 - 01:00:00:02
at any time if I wanted to.

01:00:01:03 - 01:00:03:21
And yeah, so a lot of stuff surrounding

01:00:03:21 - 01:00:05:17
sex work is still illegal though.

01:00:05:17 - 01:00:07:24
In the UK, for example, you not allow brothels,

01:00:07:24 - 01:00:09:21
so we're not allowed safe spaces,

01:00:09:21 - 01:00:12:09
and by brothels that could be two escorts

01:00:12:09 - 01:00:15:09
under one roof that is considered a brothel.

01:00:16:18 - 01:00:18:08
So you're allowed to do it.

01:00:18:08 - 01:00:21:03
Which to me sounds so,

01:00:21:03 - 01:00:24:03
sounds so wonky because like,

01:00:24:03 - 01:00:25:14
if you’re ever in a situation

01:00:25:14 - 01:00:26:03
where you wanted

01:00:26:03 - 01:00:28:07
to make yourself safe doing sex work.

01:00:28:07 - 01:00:28:20
Yeah, I'd.

01:00:28:20 - 01:00:30:01
Want to make sure there was someone I knew

01:00:30:01 - 01:00:33:00
and trusted around me but that counts as a brothel then

01:00:33:00 - 01:00:35:03
Exactly That's not allowed.

01:00:35:03 - 01:00:37:00
Solicitation is illegal,

01:00:37:00 - 01:00:39:20
so you can't actually advertise, which is

01:00:39:20 - 01:00:41:16
why you have to put on all your mark well,

01:00:41:16 - 01:00:42:22
on your websites and stuff,

01:00:42:22 - 01:00:44:22
but you'll see on things like adult work

01:00:44:22 - 01:00:47:12
what happens beyond the point of the meet

01:00:47:12 - 01:00:49:02
is between two consenting adults

01:00:49:02 - 01:00:52:02
because that's the the legality of it.

01:00:52:12 - 01:00:53:23
It's like you're not allowed to solicit.

01:00:53:23 - 01:00:54:21
You're not allowed to like,

01:00:55:22 - 01:00:58:17
advertise, which is weird.

01:00:58:17 - 01:01:00:04
And, especially street

01:01:00:04 - 01:01:01:13
solicitation, they really hate that.

01:01:01:13 - 01:01:02:22
And that it tends to like

01:01:02:22 - 01:01:05:22
criminalized the poorest, most vulnerable

01:01:06:01 - 01:01:07:11
sex workers of society.

01:01:07:11 - 01:01:09:11
Which is another shame because it's like,

01:01:09:11 - 01:01:10:12
you know, stopping anything.

01:01:10:12 - 01:01:11:13
You don't even keep them safe.

01:01:11:13 - 01:01:12:12
In fact, we're just making their

01:01:12:12 - 01:01:15:12
life a zillion times fucking worse.

01:01:15:12 - 01:01:18:13
And. Yeah, so and like, things like pimping,

01:01:18:23 - 01:01:21:23
you know, well, like agencies, I don't think,

01:01:22:02 - 01:01:23:20
I think there's a way they get around it.

01:01:23:20 - 01:01:24:15
But yeah, like,

01:01:24:15 - 01:01:25:16
you can’t

01:01:25:16 - 01:01:27:13
sort of be in charge of someone in their work

01:01:27:13 - 01:01:29:22
that's pimp, that's illegal.

01:01:29:22 - 01:01:31:02
So there's so much

01:01:31:02 - 01:01:34:02
surrounding it that is still illegal.

01:01:34:03 - 01:01:35:16
And it's. Yeah.

01:01:35:16 - 01:01:36:24
And like criminalization,

01:01:36:24 - 01:01:37:20
like when

01:01:37:20 - 01:01:38:06
say, people

01:01:38:06 - 01:01:39:18
say legalization,

01:01:39:18 - 01:01:42:02
that puts more vulnerable people at risk again

01:01:42:02 - 01:01:43:15
because then we would still need things

01:01:43:15 - 01:01:47:11
like expensive licenses and stuff like that,

01:01:47:11 - 01:01:49:19
which a lot of the women,

01:01:49:19 - 01:01:51:21
a lot of us just can't keep up with.

01:01:51:21 - 01:01:53:07
And then obviously, to sort of rely

01:01:53:07 - 01:01:54:24
on just the sort of self

01:01:54:24 - 01:01:57:13
employed income and then have to be

01:01:57:13 - 01:02:01:01
paying for licenses and police interference

01:02:01:01 - 01:02:01:12
and stuff,

01:02:01:12 - 01:02:03:08
which we all know how fucking corrupt they are.

01:02:03:08 - 01:02:07:00
We don't want them in our pockets all the time

01:02:07:18 - 01:02:08:10
you know,

01:02:08:10 - 01:02:09:03
and yeah.

01:02:09:03 - 01:02:09:13
So that's

01:02:09:13 - 01:02:12:08
why decriminalization is what we want.

01:02:12:08 - 01:02:12:24
It doesn't mean

01:02:12:24 - 01:02:14:04
that we shouldn't have standards

01:02:14:04 - 01:02:16:20
that we’re sort of upheld to and things.

01:02:16:20 - 01:02:18:22
And yeah, it would be a lot easier

01:02:18:22 - 01:02:22:02
for us to report abuse if it wasn't criminalized.

01:02:23:10 - 01:02:26:04
Where can people go to learn more about

01:02:26:04 - 01:02:29:04
decriminalizing sex work and that movement.

01:02:29:07 - 01:02:29:12
Yeah.

01:02:29:12 - 01:02:30:24
So I'm part of the sex workers

01:02:30:24 - 01:02:33:24
union and they are going full, full de crim.

01:02:34:11 - 01:02:36:03
I also like the campaign

01:02:36:03 - 01:02:37:09
Hookers Against Hardship.

01:02:37:09 - 01:02:40:16
So that's another one that definitely supports,

01:02:41:02 - 01:02:42:11
the decriminalization of sex work,

01:02:42:11 - 01:02:44:22
because they understand that,

01:02:44:22 - 01:02:47:18
you know, the core of attacking things like

01:02:47:18 - 01:02:50:18
sex trafficking and child sex trafficking

01:02:50:20 - 01:02:52:09
is to decriminalize sex work

01:02:52:09 - 01:02:54:00
because it's these industries

01:02:54:00 - 01:02:56:04
that and, you know, the sort of the shame

01:02:56:04 - 01:02:59:01
and the stigma and, and criminal parts of it

01:02:59:01 - 01:03:02:01
that mean that it does get abused a lot.

01:03:02:01 - 01:03:04:09
And we're not denying that those don't exist.

01:03:04:09 - 01:03:04:20
They do.

01:03:04:20 - 01:03:06:03
But that doesn't mean

01:03:06:03 - 01:03:10:08
we're funding like an industry of that,

01:03:10:08 - 01:03:12:00
because we're not a lot of us are mothers.

01:03:12:00 - 01:03:13:07
And we obviously

01:03:13:07 - 01:03:15:19
would love to report if we seen it and stuff

01:03:15:19 - 01:03:18:18
But again, we not really looked

01:03:18:18 - 01:03:20:01
after very well by the police.

01:03:20:01 - 01:03:20:24
I don't think anybody is,

01:03:20:24 - 01:03:23:10
but especially not sex workers.

01:03:23:10 - 01:03:24:06
And I think

01:03:24:06 - 01:03:26:05
because we are an intersectional podcast,

01:03:26:05 - 01:03:26:20
it's really

01:03:26:20 - 01:03:27:21
important to highlight here

01:03:27:21 - 01:03:30:14
that a lot of trans people engage in sex work

01:03:30:14 - 01:03:32:19
out of choice to fund, to fund their

01:03:32:19 - 01:03:34:12
own support and surgeries and health care.

01:03:34:12 - 01:03:35:04
And there's

01:03:35:04 - 01:03:37:07
so many people who do do sex work,

01:03:37:07 - 01:03:38:22
and they're not necessarily

01:03:38:22 - 01:03:40:08
always for the reasons that you think,

01:03:40:08 - 01:03:42:11
but it shouldn’t be up to us as a society

01:03:42:11 - 01:03:43:20
to kind of judge what that is.

01:03:43:20 - 01:03:45:09
So, so long as it’s safe

01:03:45:09 - 01:03:48:09
It’s really bad to assume that we're all there

01:03:48:15 - 01:03:49:12
because of abuse.

01:03:49:12 - 01:03:50:07
So because of this,

01:03:50:07 - 01:03:50:19
because of that,

01:03:50:19 - 01:03:53:04
like some people who just enjoy it

01:03:53:04 - 01:03:54:13
or have their own reasons,

01:03:54:13 - 01:03:55:07
they're trying to save up

01:03:55:07 - 01:03:56:13
for something in particular.

01:03:56:13 - 01:03:58:02
Some people are half in the industry,

01:03:58:02 - 01:04:00:19
half out and have civy jobs as well.

01:04:00:19 - 01:04:02:04
Like you should never assume

01:04:02:04 - 01:04:03:17
it makes an ass out of you and me.

01:04:04:20 - 01:04:06:07
Preach it.

01:04:06:07 - 01:04:08:02
Thank you so much Chelsea.

01:04:08:02 - 01:04:08:16
Honestly,

01:04:08:16 - 01:04:09:00
I've learned

01:04:09:00 - 01:04:12:08
so much from you in this discussion as always and

01:04:12:21 - 01:04:13:12
I think what you

01:04:13:12 - 01:04:15:09
what the work you do is really powerful

01:04:15:09 - 01:04:19:00
and really safe and really informed

01:04:19:00 - 01:04:20:13
Destigmatize decriminalise

01:04:20:13 - 01:04:21:18
Destigmatize.

01:04:21:18 - 01:04:22:11
And yeah,

01:04:22:11 - 01:04:24:01
we will link all of the movements

01:04:24:01 - 01:04:24:15
that you've mentioned

01:04:24:15 - 01:04:25:20
in the bottom of the podcast.

01:04:25:20 - 01:04:27:15
Yes. Please do give them a follow.

01:04:27:15 - 01:04:28:16
Absolutely.

01:04:28:16 - 01:04:30:12
And to everyone else, thank you so much

01:04:30:12 - 01:04:32:10
for listening to the podcast again.

01:04:32:10 - 01:04:33:00
As I always say,

01:04:33:00 - 01:04:33:16
if you just tell

01:04:33:16 - 01:04:35:13
one person that you listen

01:04:35:13 - 01:04:36:15
to this conversation,

01:04:36:15 - 01:04:38:21
you have no idea where that could end up

01:04:38:21 - 01:04:40:10
and it could start some really much needed

01:04:40:10 - 01:04:42:00
conversations on child sexual abuse

01:04:42:00 - 01:04:44:04
and on decriminalizing sex work.

01:04:44:04 - 01:04:46:16
So with that said, have a lovely day

01:04:46:16 - 01:04:49:16
and see you in the next episode. Bye!

01:07:10:01 - 01:07:13:01
God. I wish you were my sex educator at school.

01:07:14:16 - 01:07:16:05
For people who shame it and stuff,

01:07:16:05 - 01:07:18:12
it's always quite hilarious. Who?

01:07:18:12 - 01:07:19:20
You not play war games.

01:07:19:20 - 01:07:22:20
You want to be in war.

01:07:23:01 - 01:07:25:01
That's how we can protect our kids, is by

01:07:25:01 - 01:07:27:03
letting them have the power

01:07:27:03 - 01:07:28:08
and the knowledge

01:07:28:08 - 01:07:30:14
themselves in age appropriate ways.

01:07:30:14 - 01:07:31:14
Nobody's saying she needs

01:07:31:14 - 01:07:32:17
to know what a cream pie is.