Christianity & Childhood Sexual Abuse with Pastor Chioma Alade

How can the values of Christianity be used by abusers, and how can they also be used by some to aid healing? Sophia interviews survivor and Pastor Chioma Alade, as she shares her journey with the church and teaches on what forgiveness actually means for survivors of sexual abuse. 

Transcript

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The scripture says God hates divorce

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It also says that he doesn't like abuse either

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So like

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and then what comes out is,

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oh yeah, I always thought he was a bit weird and you're just like.

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And then.

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Yeah, literally.

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And then

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whenever I talk to someone that’s been sexually abused 

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oh I don't need to talk about it or report

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Because, you know, just me, it's one of the first things I have to say is

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I'm really sorry to break the news.

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Welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing

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a series all about having practical and approachable

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conversations on childhood sexual abuse, but with serious joy.

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I'm Sophia a designer and survivor,

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and this episode is all about child sexual abuse and Christianity.

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And for that I am joined by the wonderful Chioma.

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Hi. -Hello.

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First of all, thank you for having me.

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Thank you for asking me.

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I feel super honoured.

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My name is Chioma

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I, I'm a lot of things.

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I'm a lover of people.

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I love nature.

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I love, cake.

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I love my family.

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I love advocacy work.

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I also have a thing for diamonds

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That's a whole other conversation.

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And within the local church context, I function as a pastor

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and a minister and help to decide people and help them to be

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more like Jesus and happier and live joyful lives.

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So that's just a bit about me

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Thank you so much for coming on.

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And I don't know if you mind us saying,

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but we are recording this while you're pregnant.

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Yes, yes, yes we are, we are.

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I literally have, boy, about three, four weeks to go.

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So I'm very excited.

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And honestly, the countdown is real.

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We’re counting down with you as well.

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Very excited

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I think I guess it's quite interesting to explain

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a little bit about our religious history.

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So I myself was brought up in the Catholic Church.

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I have an interesting relationship with it.

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Like, I, I do still go to church every now and then.

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Like, I just don't know where my beliefs sit I would definitely describe myself

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as, like, culturally Catholic.

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And I'm so excited to do this episode, actually,

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because I have so many questions that have come up in my lifetime,

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particularly around sexual abuse.

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And I think that's what really stood out to me

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about your work and your profile, is that it is so joyful.

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And to hear someone with a story like yours who then has navigated

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back to the church in a religious leadership position.

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I was very humbled by that.

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And that's why I really wanted to, like,

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share our experiences and compare them together.

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Thank you so much.

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So for me, I guess I was brought up in a home that was,

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that definitely had Christianity in the mindset.

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But because I, my family is very dysfunctional, has a lot of abuse.

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So I think it kind of I kind of had the potential

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to really affect how I saw Christianity and actually how I saw God.

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And I came to the faith literally just by myself in my bedroom,

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and an encounter with God.

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And I think that's really what was the anchor for

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my faith, and continued to be the anchor.

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And I, I have a lot, a lot of history of abuse.

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And, during my lifetime, I was I've literally been sexually abused

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by three different people, and all three of them would

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call themselves Christians.

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So it was a real,

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I definitely felt like it was a massive, attack on my faith.

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And actually, I, I could see how that would be a massive deterrent,

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because a lot of people will ask me, okay.

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And hearing about my experiences, they're like, why do you go to church?

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That was one of the

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first questions that people ask me, like, why do you go to church?

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And I'd love to continue that, you know, as we discuss,

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explain a little bit more about it.

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Yeah.

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And I guess I guess what's quite interesting is from your story

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that you shared online, is that some of the sexual experiences,

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unwanted sexual experiences that you've had, have been within the church itself?

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Yes. So, yeah, I'm

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I'm curious to know

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when you said that you found God and you found your faith yourself in your bedroom,

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how old were you and what what was going on at that time in your life?

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Oh, I was eight, nine.

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And I actually at that time,

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it was like the first time I'd been sexually abused, really.

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And I was I've been sexually abused by a relative.

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And I think a lot of my stories in regards

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to abuse merged, because I know what a sexual abuse

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in the family environment and, an educational environment

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in the home that, kind of from a clergy point of view.

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And I think

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I could have lost my mind if I look back on it.

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And for a long time it really I really struggled with my mental health.

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I literally just it's so hard to describe, but I've never felt

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the warmth and the presence of God like that, like since

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I've had experiences in my life, but there was just this ultimate

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knowing during that time and searching the Scripture

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and realizing God's love for me really was,

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so much bigger than the violence and the abuse that I was experiencing.

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And actually a lot of the childhood neglect that I experienced too.

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And it's so challenging.

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I think when you’re a first daughter especially in like an immigrant

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and an immigrant.

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household, there is there is asked responsibility and a lot of us responsibility.

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And I actually find it very interesting how many immigrant first daughters I talk to

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who are victims of sexual abuse,

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who don't talk about it until they’re like in their 40s,

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and how easily it's missed because of the function

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that they often perform as second or third parents.

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Right? Depending on what the family dynamic looks like.

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That was seen as quite responsible.

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So no one really assumes that they could be vulnerable.

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And, they tend to be magnets for predators because predators can see the

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responsibility that they have

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a lot better

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than we often can, which is very interesting.

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I, I never really realized

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that that was a trope before.

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Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

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I'm an eldest daughter too, and I guess, yeah, like no one sees you as vulnerable.

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And not only that, but especially in a religious setting

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and and in a religious household, it's like there is that added

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layer of duty that is coming from your family, particularly

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if you're from an immigrant household, which is then backed up by religion.

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So it's almost like a double whammy of expectation, I suppose.

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Yeah, and a triple whammy of shame, too.

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Yeah, because because there is this idealization.

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And I'm speaking as a minister myself,

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I see this a lot that we have this ideal of virginity oftentimes

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in the church and often what happens is

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when people are

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abused, they feel like they've given away their virginity

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They blame themselves.

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They don't understand that it's been stolen from them.

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Right.

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So it's normally over 20 years for someone to talk about childhood sexual abuse.

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Right. There’s the statistics that we know

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there's a there's this double whammy of I can't believe this happened.

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And also there's this shame because it's the kind of religious attachment

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to virginity and the pedestal

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that people put on it, especially I find, for women,

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which I find very, very hypocritical, but especially for women.

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And so there's this, okay, if I talk, who will believe me.

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Which happens to every victim.

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And then in a Christian environment it's are people going

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to think I was promiscuous.

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And also like so

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another bit of background my family is extremely Roman Catholic,

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particularly in the the Vietnamese side

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and I have a lot of elders on that side of the family who,

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you know, for example,

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there's people in our family who are on the way to becoming saints,

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like they've been beatified and things like that, like extremely religious.

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I wasn't really talked

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much about sexual safety or anything like that,

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but the only time I ever was, it was like, do not let anybody touch you.

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Yeah.

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And it was a very that message was delivered to me in quite a preacher

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way, like in the same way that you might deliver a religious teaching.

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I'm not saying that that's,

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you know, the way it should be delivered

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or anything like that, but that's what the church teaches.

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But I definitely internalized that message as being like, okay,

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it's my duty, therefore, to not let anyone touch me

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so that when you are abused as a child, it's like, oh, okay,

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so this happened because I failed then, therefore I'm the problem.

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Yeah, that's really that's really unfortunate.

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I actually know quite a lot about the Catholic faith because the predominant,

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the predominant, I would

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say number of my family are actually Catholic.

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Interesting.

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So I, I would say I probably would verge,

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more Pentecostal, or non, non denomination.

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Because I believe the whole Bible so we take from the Pentecostals

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because we take from the evangelical, we take the method, we take the baptism.

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So I guess my, I would say my collation

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of how I believe Jesus is, I believe the whole Christ.

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But I do understand that massive, massive

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that that the projection of how we teach young children does directly affect

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how they see themselves if they do get sexually abused.

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And obviously there's other double whammy of culture too.

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Yeah, that's

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because a lot of us have more cultural backgrounds outside of the West.

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We have. We do tend to be more religious.

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I find when you look at Asian cultures when you look at African cultures

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when you look at Caribbean cultures.

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And so all of those things together, I find, do

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make it harder, especially for minorities, to come out and say that they’ve been abused.

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Yeah.

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And on that I find in Western cultures

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actually now because even Polish is similar,

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I would say like within like the UK Western context, church is something

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you do once a week or once in a while or okay, it's Christmas or we go to church.

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It's just something you do and compartmentalise

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But I feel like in a lot of other cultures like, you know,

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Vietnamese, Nigerian, Polish, like so many other cultures, it's

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something that is so embedded into the everyday life.

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And that could come out as something like, wow, it's a beautiful day.

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Thank you, Jesus.

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Or oh, I'm going to see a test today.

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Let's pray for let's pray for, you know, there's a let's be grateful.

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Or, you know, for example, I have so many strong memories of

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like every time my my grandparents passed a statue a religious statue,

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they'd either bow to it or, like, touch the foot.

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So much so that in the church they had to start putting signs out

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because our church was like loads of people of color.

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They had to start putting signs up, being like, please

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stop touching the feet of these statues because they're wearing away.

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But, you know, well, I well, I guess

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what I'm trying to say is like, it's so it's so embedded as part of life,

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which means it's it's much harder to compartmentalize, you know?

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Yes, definitely.

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I think your family is kind of built into the community.

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I think when we look at the Bible,

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when we look at the early church, I think it was meant to be.

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We were meant to live in community.

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And the Christian is is when we look at the Scripture,

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we're meant to we're meant to be really, really, really close.

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And I think if you're part of a functioning and healthy church,

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that is an absolutely amazing thing.

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If you're not a part from a part of, a more healthy,

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I would say religious environment,

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because I'm very careful of what we label church these days.

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So the intention that God had was

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that the church would be, a place

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where we can really get to know God, a place that we can live in community,

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a place where we are strengthened in our Christian faith.

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Because the truth is, the matter is, is being a Christian and the world

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and the way that the world is today can be very challenging.

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Holding faith in the midst of the news headlines and a recession,

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and so much of the sad news that we see,

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is definitely an interesting experience.

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Jesus definitely pre-empted that.

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And so created,

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created this incredible, you know, the churche is

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a representative of Jesus basically on earth.

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And we believe that we are basically the bride of Christ.

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And so we have this amazing

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functioning tree with every branch and every finger

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And that it is completely, completely different, but serves

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the Lord and should serve community in a very individual way.

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And I think that the church is an incredible place.

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I think it's really sad to see

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the impression

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that the world has about the church, especially in regards to sexual abuse.

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Yeah, and it's something I'd like to talk

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a little bit more about in depth.

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You mentioned.

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Yeah, you mentioned obviously that you experienced clerical abuse as well.

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Can you explain for people what that is? -Yes.

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So we call it clergy sexual abuse or clergy abuse.

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And that's where it's literally

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just sexual abuse, but involving anyone in,

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in some kind of authority within a, within the church dynamic.

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And so we call it clergy abuse.

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But what I think makes

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clergy abuse in biblical terms such an abomination and just so terrible

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for us is that the church

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is somewhere where people should be safe.

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And when we look at biblical precepts, there's no warrant.

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There's no, there's nothing in the Bible

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that says that clergy abuse is okay and should not be,

00:14:31:24 - 00:14:32:17
should not be

00:14:32:17 - 00:14:35:17
something that we seek justice in regards to,

00:14:35:21 - 00:14:38:13
what we have seen headline after headline,

00:14:38:13 - 00:14:44:04
unfortunately, is that people have acted outside of God's will and outside

00:14:44:04 - 00:14:47:04
of biblical precepts, which is why this stuff keeps on continuing.

00:14:48:06 - 00:14:52:00
If there's not, there's nothing in the Bible that talks about us

00:14:52:12 - 00:14:55:19
covering up for this kind of sin or covering up to this kind of behavior.

00:14:56:07 - 00:14:59:07
If anything, Christians should be champions of justice.

00:14:59:16 - 00:15:01:13
So it's really it's really sad.

00:15:01:13 - 00:15:04:08
But we also do know that,

00:15:04:08 - 00:15:07:05
Christians are not are not perfect people.

00:15:07:05 - 00:15:10:05
And that is not to disregard,

00:15:11:01 - 00:15:14:01
that's not to disregard what abusers do.

00:15:14:02 - 00:15:17:04
It's just to highlight the fact that safeguarding is needed

00:15:17:04 - 00:15:21:08
because people would do things even within the church that lack integrity.

00:15:21:21 - 00:15:22:07
Yeah.

00:15:23:13 - 00:15:26:21
When, we were talking off camera before we started recording

00:15:26:21 - 00:15:29:21
and I was trying to find some statistics about this,

00:15:30:03 - 00:15:34:13
and I found it really difficult, actually, like most of the stats I found

00:15:34:13 - 00:15:38:09
were based in America and they were more about people's opinions.

00:15:38:09 - 00:15:42:12
So, for example, that like 24% of Americans who grew up

00:15:42:15 - 00:15:46:08
in faith have lost it due to either the church's

00:15:46:08 - 00:15:49:22
reactions, child sexual abuse, or because of clergy sexual abuse.

00:15:50:07 - 00:15:55:05
Yes, but I couldn't find any statistics about the scale of how this comes out.

00:15:55:05 - 00:15:59:07
And the only thing that was similar was from a report by the Independent

00:15:59:07 - 00:16:03:02
Inquiry on Child Sexual Abuse in the UK, and they basically

00:16:03:02 - 00:16:06:09
looked into a number of institutions around child sexual abuse

00:16:06:09 - 00:16:09:09
and the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of England.

00:16:09:10 - 00:16:11:16
Basically, the church was one of those institutions.

00:16:11:16 - 00:16:15:14
And, you know, there was like 3000 cases within the church,

00:16:15:21 - 00:16:17:04
the Roman Catholic Church alone.

00:16:17:04 - 00:16:21:21
But you made a really good point about how we can't really trust those statistics.

00:16:21:24 - 00:16:25:04
So, what that actually means. -Yeah. No.

00:16:25:04 - 00:16:28:13
So I try not to use a lot of the, most statistics come out of

00:16:28:15 - 00:16:29:17
America.

00:16:29:17 - 00:16:34:02
I try not to use them because first of all, it takes 24 years

00:16:34:14 - 00:16:37:05
for someone that's been sexually abused as a child to speak.

00:16:37:05 - 00:16:41:19
So we have 24 years of potentially not included data.

00:16:41:23 - 00:16:42:08
Yeah.

00:16:42:08 - 00:16:46:13
So we have the massive stigma about sexual abuse.

00:16:46:19 - 00:16:51:06
So even if people are abused a lot of people don't speak up about it,

00:16:53:09 - 00:16:55:13
we know we're missing data in the UK.

00:16:55:13 - 00:17:00:10
We haven't had any serious research into actual figures and numbers,

00:17:00:20 - 00:17:05:04
but we do know 1 in 6 children are sexually abused and we do know that.

00:17:05:04 - 00:17:08:21
It's kind of one and 1 in 6 and 1 in 4

00:17:08:21 - 00:17:11:21
in terms of like adults that women.

00:17:12:18 - 00:17:16:11
So we know that this is a really serious problem.

00:17:16:22 - 00:17:20:10
I don't think that the current statistics that we have, reflect the problem

00:17:20:12 - 00:17:22:16
if I’m being really honest. -Oh, absolutely.

00:17:22:16 - 00:17:25:19
And even the fact that, you know, since starting Secrets a year ago,

00:17:25:19 - 00:17:28:08
the number of people who've disclosed to me alone who's like,

00:17:28:08 - 00:17:32:18
never told anyone before, I'm just have been looking for that reason

00:17:32:18 - 00:17:35:22
or space that felt safe and comfortable and haven't found it.

00:17:36:07 - 00:17:39:15
You know, what I say to people is you are definitely going to have a chat

00:17:39:15 - 00:17:43:23
about child sexual abuse in your lifetime because from what's been reported alone,

00:17:44:05 - 00:17:45:21
it's a quarter of people, you know,

00:17:45:21 - 00:17:48:22
we know it's much higher than that because who’s willingly

00:17:48:22 - 00:17:50:07
adding to that stat, you know,

00:17:52:20 - 00:17:53:09
when it

00:17:53:09 - 00:17:57:06
comes to so I haven't been abused in a clergy environment.

00:17:57:06 - 00:18:00:15
I've spoken to a few people who have who a mixture of people

00:18:00:15 - 00:18:03:19
who've either left the faith or kept their faith.

00:18:05:22 - 00:18:07:23
It feels like a very difficult

00:18:07:23 - 00:18:11:14
one to navigate, because it's like the thing

00:18:11:14 - 00:18:14:14
that a lot of people who are religious would turn to for solace.

00:18:14:21 - 00:18:17:10
It feels like that's the thing that then betrayed them.

00:18:17:10 - 00:18:20:12
And this is, I guess, where you make a distinction between

00:18:21:12 - 00:18:24:12
the faith and and the Lord and God's love,

00:18:25:04 - 00:18:29:10
as opposed to people who act and act on that will and, and that kind of thing.

00:18:29:10 - 00:18:33:18
But I can't imagine it feels like there's so many other layers that play there,

00:18:33:18 - 00:18:37:23
particularly if you are religious person who has experienced clergy abuse. -Yes.

00:18:39:03 - 00:18:40:16
It's really challenging.

00:18:40:16 - 00:18:44:05
And, you know, there was a very serious

00:18:44:13 - 00:18:47:07
neurological issue that we have

00:18:47:07 - 00:18:50:07
when we are abused because, our pathways

00:18:51:09 - 00:18:54:09
start to feel make us feel like,

00:18:54:23 - 00:18:56:13
the church is unsafe.

00:18:56:13 - 00:19:01:00
And we have seen historically that that is not you know, I don't want to

00:19:01:16 - 00:19:04:16
I don't want to gaslight people into feeling like,

00:19:05:09 - 00:19:07:16
some of their concerns concerning church aren’t

00:19:07:16 - 00:19:10:13
Valid. There have been some issues.

00:19:10:13 - 00:19:13:02
I just want to just say that, you know, full stop.

00:19:13:02 - 00:19:13:16
Of course

00:19:13:16 - 00:19:17:04
Been some issues, some very serious issues.

00:19:17:14 - 00:19:20:10
And when you look at the statistics, I've seen them in regards to people

00:19:20:10 - 00:19:23:13
leaving that a lot of people are leaving over abuse.

00:19:24:12 - 00:19:26:10
And we're seeing that in various countries.

00:19:26:10 - 00:19:30:13
We're seeing a lot of different, church groups trying to challenge

00:19:30:17 - 00:19:34:05
and trying to, amend safeguarding or to,

00:19:35:04 - 00:19:36:03
really help people

00:19:36:03 - 00:19:39:09
understand that we want the church

00:19:39:09 - 00:19:42:21
to look like Jesus intended, because abuse is not something that Jesus ever wanted.

00:19:42:22 - 00:19:46:00
I spend a lot of my time speaking with people

00:19:46:00 - 00:19:49:00
who have been abused in church environments,

00:19:50:04 - 00:19:53:04
who actually want to come back to church.

00:19:53:18 - 00:19:59:11
And helping them first of all get the right, kind of the right kind of assistance.

00:19:59:11 - 00:20:02:11
I really, I really strongly recommend

00:20:02:15 - 00:20:05:15
speaking to mental health practitioners,

00:20:05:17 - 00:20:08:04
to actually get to the root of this, to understand,

00:20:08:04 - 00:20:11:21
to help them understand that what happened to them is not their fault.

00:20:12:09 - 00:20:13:20
Really important.

00:20:13:20 - 00:20:17:11
I find that the places where this kind of abuse happens,

00:20:17:11 - 00:20:22:07
if I'm being very honest, our places that aren’t functioning as as healthy churches.

00:20:22:07 - 00:20:25:07
in the beginning, honestly,

00:20:27:06 - 00:20:30:06
and there's also a massive lack of safeguarding.

00:20:30:09 - 00:20:33:13
And so a lot of my work involves speaking to leaders,

00:20:33:18 - 00:20:36:16
Christian leaders, Christian captains, trustees,

00:20:37:17 - 00:20:39:22
designated safeguarding leads,

00:20:39:22 - 00:20:42:22
and making sure that they understand that

00:20:43:21 - 00:20:47:01
predators will target religious environments

00:20:47:01 - 00:20:49:17
because there's a power dynamic.

00:20:49:17 - 00:20:53:04
And if you want to abuse a lot of people where are you going to go, you going to

00:20:53:05 - 00:20:57:13
go to a place where you get a position where there's a lot of implied authority,

00:20:58:18 - 00:21:00:18
and when there's implied authority,

00:21:00:18 - 00:21:03:13
that creates the bridge for vulnerability.

00:21:03:13 - 00:21:06:13
They have to see that the church we see that in schools, we see that in education.

00:21:06:24 - 00:21:11:03
Unfortunately, we're seeing with female surgeons in the UK.

00:21:11:12 - 00:21:16:13
A third of female surgeons in training have been sexually harassed or abuse,

00:21:17:14 - 00:21:20:16
so any, any kind of environment where there is,

00:21:22:03 - 00:21:25:17
where there's a power dynamic is vulnerable.

00:21:26:05 - 00:21:29:18
And so helping church leaders understand this will help us to preserve

00:21:29:19 - 00:21:30:19
safe churches.

00:21:30:19 - 00:21:35:16
When you got on your journey to becoming a pastor, what was that?

00:21:35:16 - 00:21:37:24
Something that was quite front of mind for you?

00:21:37:24 - 00:21:39:14
Not in the way it is today.

00:21:39:14 - 00:21:44:06
I think I definitely had in mind because we have the scriptures to guide us.

00:21:44:13 - 00:21:46:21
We know what a functioning church should look like.

00:21:46:21 - 00:21:49:08
It should be safe, it should be healthy.

00:21:49:08 - 00:21:50:09
But I would say that

00:21:50:09 - 00:21:55:02
a lot of the environments that I was in and had been in weren't very helpful.

00:21:55:02 - 00:21:56:21
So or healthy.

00:21:56:21 - 00:22:01:05
So in some ways my understanding of that was very thwarted

00:22:01:17 - 00:22:06:04
and it's been in the last couple of years with a lot more, of research,

00:22:06:04 - 00:22:11:01
a lot more education that I've actually begun to really understand

00:22:11:01 - 00:22:15:22
and get a grip on what creating safe environments actually looks like.

00:22:18:12 - 00:22:18:23
And that's

00:22:18:23 - 00:22:22:20
been a really steep, steep, steep learning curves.

00:22:22:20 - 00:22:26:22
Because beyond learning the Scripture, beyond study, beyond,

00:22:28:10 - 00:22:31:08
beyond creating,

00:22:31:08 - 00:22:32:19
beyond creating,

00:22:32:19 - 00:22:36:06
a model, God is asking us to build a safe community

00:22:36:07 - 00:22:38:13
that's really the command.

00:22:38:13 - 00:22:41:11
And a lot of the time sometimes in training

00:22:41:11 - 00:22:44:01
that's not necessarily emphasized.

00:22:44:01 - 00:22:47:17
And so what happens is we have these situations happening

00:22:48:06 - 00:22:49:23
over and over and over again.

00:22:49:23 - 00:22:52:05
To break the cycle for me to change the way

00:22:52:05 - 00:22:54:09
I think we also educate ministers and leaders.

00:22:54:09 - 00:22:57:18
When you go to educate ministers and leaders or have these sessions,

00:22:57:23 - 00:22:59:19
what, is there

00:22:59:19 - 00:23:02:07
any pushback or I guess no.

00:23:02:07 - 00:23:07:17
First I want to ask you, how do you define a healthy church and community to them?

00:23:07:17 - 00:23:10:14
Like what are the practical steps of what that looks like?

00:23:10:14 - 00:23:13:06
Well, Jesus is like literally laid it out for us.

00:23:13:06 - 00:23:17:20
So a healthy church looks like one that prioritizes the teachings of Jesus Christ.

00:23:18:23 - 00:23:21:23
It looks like a place where people are safe.

00:23:22:04 - 00:23:25:10
It looks like a place where people can bring literally.

00:23:25:10 - 00:23:28:11
I like to describe a church as a bit of a hospital, so

00:23:28:11 - 00:23:32:06
everyone comes in sick like you have you have things.

00:23:32:06 - 00:23:34:07
Everyone has things that they need to deal with.

00:23:34:07 - 00:23:38:14
And it's a place where you can get aid, you know, if you’re feeling discouraged

00:23:38:14 - 00:23:40:07
You can be encouraged.

00:23:40:07 - 00:23:44:04
If you're feeling sad, you are reminded of the hope that there is in Jesus.

00:23:44:20 - 00:23:48:24
If you have a disability or there's a there's a there's neurodivergence

00:23:49:07 - 00:23:52:09
It's a place that you feel included it’s a place that you feel safe,

00:23:52:17 - 00:23:55:23
it’s a place that you don't feel less than neurotypical people.

00:23:56:07 - 00:24:00:06
It's a place that, that makes a member so that you can participate

00:24:00:06 - 00:24:03:18
in the community just as everybody else does.

00:24:04:04 - 00:24:07:12
It's a place that you are educated, and you're encouraged to,

00:24:09:03 - 00:24:11:22
build your own relationship with Jesus Christ.

00:24:11:22 - 00:24:14:12
That model is what we call discipleship.

00:24:14:12 - 00:24:19:13
So all of those different things together, the church should be a community.

00:24:19:13 - 00:24:21:20
It should be a,

00:24:21:20 - 00:24:25:02
a place where the Christian is strengthened in their faith.

00:24:25:11 - 00:24:28:05
So that's what a healthy church should look like.

00:24:28:05 - 00:24:32:07
And also with really great safeguarding understanding that

00:24:32:20 - 00:24:35:20
because of the power dynamics at play,

00:24:36:03 - 00:24:39:19
it can lend itself to being abused as an institution too

00:24:39:19 - 00:24:43:23
What is the typical response from people when you deliver that message

00:24:44:10 - 00:24:47:21
that there's abuse that can happen and or if there's somebody where they've

00:24:48:03 - 00:24:51:01
they've seen or witnessed abuse within the church, like how

00:24:51:01 - 00:24:52:12
what do you advise to them?

00:24:52:12 - 00:24:55:23
There's a couple of different kinds of groups, people that approach me.

00:24:57:10 - 00:24:57:23
There is

00:24:57:23 - 00:25:01:14
the pastors that will come to me and say, this has happened in our church.

00:25:01:18 - 00:25:04:18
What do we do? How do we handle it?

00:25:05:07 - 00:25:08:22
Someone, someone, someone somewhere referred you to me.

00:25:10:11 - 00:25:14:13
There are the pastor's or ministers that don't realize it's a very serious problem.

00:25:15:01 - 00:25:18:12
And then talk to me and then do their investigations

00:25:18:12 - 00:25:21:12
and are like,

00:25:21:20 - 00:25:22:05
she was.

00:25:22:05 - 00:25:24:00
Right. Obviously.

00:25:24:00 - 00:25:26:20
So. Right.

00:25:26:20 - 00:25:29:07
So this is actually an issue.

00:25:29:07 - 00:25:32:00
And the people that come to me just be more educated about it

00:25:32:00 - 00:25:35:15
because they've seen it play out with family members or and they don't

00:25:35:16 - 00:25:38:16
they don't want it to happen in their own church location.

00:25:38:22 - 00:25:43:19
And I guess all across the world I'm seeing because of that, honestly,

00:25:43:19 - 00:25:47:01
really awful headlines that we've had as a church in the last like two years,

00:25:48:13 - 00:25:50:06
slash three years,

00:25:50:06 - 00:25:53:07
people want to be more educated about this.

00:25:53:07 - 00:25:56:04
And that is massively encouraging to me,

00:25:56:04 - 00:25:59:11
not just as a minister, but as a abuse survivor.

00:25:59:17 - 00:26:02:11
It's that I'm seeing across the world

00:26:02:11 - 00:26:05:16
a global hunger from the church

00:26:05:16 - 00:26:09:15
to make sure that this stops happening apart from the headlines.

00:26:09:23 - 00:26:13:13
We believe that we have, a higher authority that we answer to.

00:26:14:01 - 00:26:15:02
And God isn't pleased.

00:26:15:02 - 00:26:17:10
With all this abuse

00:26:17:10 - 00:26:20:10
We we really want to make sure that this is this is not happening.

00:26:20:22 - 00:26:23:19
And also we want to basically cut out weeds in the church

00:26:23:19 - 00:26:27:12
who are allowing it to happen and turning a blind eye

00:26:28:06 - 00:26:32:09
to maintain, whether it's authority or lines of control.

00:26:32:16 - 00:26:36:14
So there's there's people kind of like when you're talking about the ministers

00:26:36:14 - 00:26:40:07
who come to you and say, you know, is this really that big a problem?

00:26:41:10 - 00:26:44:01
And, sorry if I'm going so deep on this.

00:26:44:01 - 00:26:45:21
It's just, -No. no it’s fine

00:26:45:21 - 00:26:48:20
Okay -It is deep

00:26:48:20 - 00:26:52:11
But that's the thing, like, because I, I imagine there's a lot of people who,

00:26:52:23 - 00:26:56:13
for want of a better word, play devil's advocate in terms of saying, you know,

00:26:57:05 - 00:26:59:14
can this problem really be as big as she's

00:26:59:14 - 00:27:02:21
making out in terms of clergy abuse or.

00:27:03:03 - 00:27:06:03
Oh, but the church is definitely going to do the right thing.

00:27:07:20 - 00:27:10:20
What are some of the things you'd say to those those people?

00:27:11:03 - 00:27:15:08
We can't control the behaviors of every human being that enters the church.

00:27:15:10 - 00:27:17:16
From a theological point of view,

00:27:17:16 - 00:27:19:19
when I say theology, I mean just a study of the Bible.

00:27:19:19 - 00:27:23:05
Yeah, we understand that every single person is born a sinner, right?

00:27:23:19 - 00:27:26:06
And that's how as Christians, we see it.

00:27:26:06 - 00:27:27:24
We're all born imperfect.

00:27:27:24 - 00:27:32:04
And Jesus came to create a bridge between us,

00:27:33:07 - 00:27:36:03
between heaven and between earth, between God between man.

00:27:36:03 - 00:27:39:03
And to help us to be the people that God intended.

00:27:39:18 - 00:27:42:11
And if we go by that alone as Christians,

00:27:42:11 - 00:27:46:05
that's the fundamental point of our faith, which automatically means

00:27:46:05 - 00:27:49:20
that there are going to be abusers, there are going to be predators.

00:27:50:02 - 00:27:52:15
If we just if we literally just go by that,

00:27:52:15 - 00:27:55:10
that we understand that there is a priority,

00:27:55:10 - 00:27:59:01
it would be a contradiction to the faith to not believe that there would be the

00:27:59:14 - 00:28:02:14
the people that don't have that in mind

00:28:03:15 - 00:28:06:21
and apart from that, the headlines and news

00:28:06:21 - 00:28:10:06
that we're seeing around the church, the exposures that we've been seeing

00:28:10:06 - 00:28:14:18
around the church regarding very regarded

00:28:15:02 - 00:28:18:02
ministers about abuse

00:28:18:06 - 00:28:21:03
would prove that kind of mindset wrong anyway.

00:28:21:03 - 00:28:27:00
And it's far better to assume that there's a predator in every room

00:28:27:24 - 00:28:30:24
in the church and plan

00:28:31:03 - 00:28:34:13
for safe environments than find out after the fact

00:28:34:24 - 00:28:38:01
that you miss opportunities, support people that God loves.

00:28:40:09 - 00:28:42:11
The thing that I found quite challenging,

00:28:42:11 - 00:28:47:14
particularly in the type of Christianity that I grew up in, is that there almost

00:28:47:14 - 00:28:53:01
seems to be a switch of like Christian equals good, non-Christian equals bad.

00:28:53:08 - 00:28:56:23
And therefore even if somebody and then if somebody sinned

00:28:56:23 - 00:28:59:23
in the Christian, in the Christian faith, it's like, oh, well then

00:29:00:04 - 00:29:02:05
that Christian identity is challenged.

00:29:02:05 - 00:29:06:03
I guess what I mean by that is when everything came out about my abuser

00:29:06:07 - 00:29:10:10
who converted into Christianity and almost entered the family that way,

00:29:10:17 - 00:29:13:17
when everyone started finding out, some people were saying,

00:29:13:20 - 00:29:16:01
oh, well, he wasn't truly a Christian then.

00:29:16:01 - 00:29:18:01
Like I always knew he wasn't a true Christian.

00:29:18:01 - 00:29:21:01
If he did this and,

00:29:21:08 - 00:29:24:08
I don't know how I feel about that side of it or that opinion,

00:29:24:10 - 00:29:27:07
but I guess the takeaway for me was more like,

00:29:27:07 - 00:29:31:02
okay, it's so interesting how quickly you are to drop somebody

00:29:31:08 - 00:29:35:06
or not relate them to your faith, because this has happened.

00:29:36:18 - 00:29:37:00
Yeah.

00:29:37:00 - 00:29:39:09
I don't know how I feel about it, but it's interesting.

00:29:39:09 - 00:29:42:13
I think as Christians, our priority

00:29:42:13 - 00:29:45:13
needs to be really caring for the victims.

00:29:45:20 - 00:29:49:08
I think sometimes the conversations take

00:29:49:08 - 00:29:53:07
a, take a frame that I don't think is very helpful.

00:29:54:00 - 00:29:54:09
Okay.

00:29:54:09 - 00:29:56:06
So it's a person because, you know,

00:29:56:06 - 00:29:59:18
I've had that or sometimes, you know, I remember when I was in my situation,

00:30:00:00 - 00:30:03:00
I'm really sorry to hear about to hear about yours.

00:30:03:00 - 00:30:05:16
and there were people who were like, oh, -Thank you

00:30:05:16 - 00:30:08:01
I always knew something was wrong with him.

00:30:08:01 - 00:30:09:07
And it's like.

00:30:09:07 - 00:30:11:13
Okay, but how helpful is that now? Yeah.

00:30:11:13 - 00:30:13:02
And also, did you do anything about that

00:30:13:02 - 00:30:15:09
when you thought that that like, did you do anything. Yes.

00:30:15:09 - 00:30:18:19
Like I always knew he was a bit controlling I'm like clap yourself.

00:30:19:07 - 00:30:21:04
Unhelpful. Like

00:30:22:03 - 00:30:24:03
it’s the most unhelpful observation.

00:30:24:03 - 00:30:25:06
ever. Okay.

00:30:25:06 - 00:30:27:21
So what I do like give me a pat on the back for being late to the party?

00:30:27:21 - 00:30:29:15
Like what?

00:30:29:15 - 00:30:31:07
Like what?

00:30:31:07 - 00:30:33:15
What do you want from me and say, oh, great, you had great

00:30:33:15 - 00:30:36:18
discernment bur didn’t do anything about it, or like oh my gosh I knew.

00:30:36:18 - 00:30:37:04
Like what?

00:30:37:04 - 00:30:39:20
What did you know? Like what did you know? You didn't do anything.

00:30:39:20 - 00:30:42:20
So it's actually kind of that was just, you know, shut up.

00:30:43:02 - 00:30:43:20
Also

00:30:43:20 - 00:30:46:23
Just just on that, like it's incredibly common.

00:30:46:23 - 00:30:48:15
I think people will listen to that and be like,

00:30:48:15 - 00:30:50:10
oh, maybe that just happened to Chioma

00:30:50:10 - 00:30:51:17
No, it happened to me.

00:30:51:17 - 00:30:53:04
It's happened to so many people.

00:30:53:04 - 00:30:56:17
I think people panic in that state of receiving such bad news,

00:30:56:17 - 00:31:00:00
and then they want to say something that almost is like, oh, I relate to you.

00:31:00:00 - 00:31:01:14
I feel I understand,

00:31:01:14 - 00:31:03:00
and then what comes out is,

00:31:03:00 - 00:31:06:00
oh yeah, I always thought he was a bit weird and you're just like.

00:31:06:04 - 00:31:07:01
And then.

00:31:07:01 - 00:31:09:21
Yeah, literally. And then. I yeah.

00:31:10:21 - 00:31:13:00
You turned a blind eye.

00:31:13:00 - 00:31:14:19
Our priority needs to be the victims.

00:31:14:19 - 00:31:18:18
And I know what you were saying about people being really easy to like, cast

00:31:18:18 - 00:31:21:18
people off as not being Christians.

00:31:22:10 - 00:31:25:10
All across the Bible, we see flawed Christians.

00:31:26:05 - 00:31:28:20
However,

00:31:28:20 - 00:31:30:19
there is a difference

00:31:30:19 - 00:31:33:19
between a Christian who has a struggle

00:31:34:10 - 00:31:37:22
and a Christian who and not a Christian,

00:31:37:22 - 00:31:41:19
a person who affiliates himself with a Christian faith

00:31:42:05 - 00:31:45:05
and is living a life that looks nothing like a Christian.

00:31:45:19 - 00:31:49:02
And in the New Testament, Paul is really clear about it.

00:31:49:02 - 00:31:51:12
I don't think we,

00:31:51:12 - 00:31:54:07
I think we study the Bible sometimes the way we want to.

00:31:54:07 - 00:31:58:02
I don't actually read the Bible and Paul’s really clear

00:31:58:03 - 00:32:03:12
like if you have, someone among you who is doing things that are harming

00:32:03:12 - 00:32:08:13
people, who is, who is leading people, who is leading little ones astray.

00:32:08:13 - 00:32:10:20
Who is, who is, is basically,

00:32:11:23 - 00:32:13:11
causing a problem.

00:32:13:11 - 00:32:15:12
You know, Paul actually says, don't even eat with them

00:32:15:12 - 00:32:18:13
You know, I mean, we have multiple multiple.

00:32:18:20 - 00:32:22:01
And people use the example of the Old Testament and a lot of things

00:32:22:01 - 00:32:26:10
that they did in the Old Testament as remedies for rape and forced rape.

00:32:28:06 - 00:32:30:00
In the, in the context at the time.

00:32:30:00 - 00:32:33:14
I mean, now, would I agree with anybody marrying their

00:32:33:22 - 00:32:36:22
abuser, absolutely not.

00:32:36:24 - 00:32:40:01
But because of the way women were seen at the time, it was a way to redeem,

00:32:41:08 - 00:32:42:09
redeem the woman.

00:32:42:09 - 00:32:44:14
Because when that came out,

00:32:44:14 - 00:32:47:14
obviously a woman would never, would never marry back in those times.

00:32:47:24 - 00:32:52:10
And the family would be, you know, ostracized and would lose everything.

00:32:52:10 - 00:32:55:14
So in the context of the situations and other remedies

00:32:55:14 - 00:32:58:24
that the Bible provided at that time were kind of under,

00:33:00:13 - 00:33:02:15
under the law and were in a time

00:33:02:15 - 00:33:06:11
that was very different from us today and we would operate very differently.

00:33:06:12 - 00:33:10:08
Having said that, there is also a story in the Bible of a woman that was raped

00:33:10:08 - 00:33:13:08
and her brothers killed over a hundred men over it. So.

00:33:16:11 - 00:33:19:19
So that that we do see consequences across the Bible.

00:33:20:01 - 00:33:23:06
We know that God cares about these things, and

00:33:23:12 - 00:33:27:06
I just find our conversations tend to be in the wrong place.

00:33:27:18 - 00:33:31:08
And there’s this assumption of reconciliation.

00:33:32:02 - 00:33:33:18
Yeah,

00:33:33:18 - 00:33:37:11
that doesn't always really make much sense.

00:33:37:19 - 00:33:40:05
if I’m being really honest, because

00:33:40:05 - 00:33:42:09
forgiveness does not

00:33:42:09 - 00:33:45:03
does not imply reconciliation.

00:33:45:03 - 00:33:49:13
So I want to talk about this in a lot of depth, actually.

00:33:49:14 - 00:33:52:14
So now, if it was like the time

00:33:52:20 - 00:33:56:01
when we think about Christianity

00:33:56:02 - 00:33:59:02
and child sexual abuse. Yes.

00:33:59:19 - 00:34:02:04
And this is me just going off my own experiences.

00:34:02:04 - 00:34:08:06
But overwhelmingly the narrative seems to be you need to forgive.

00:34:08:12 - 00:34:11:03
And I think what I've really struggled about and

00:34:11:03 - 00:34:14:01
and why I'm so happy that I've met you, actually, is because

00:34:15:05 - 00:34:18:05
I'm not ready to forgive.

00:34:18:17 - 00:34:20:15
I would definitely say I'm on that journey.

00:34:20:15 - 00:34:23:00
I don't even know how I feel about it.

00:34:23:00 - 00:34:26:15
But one thing I realized is that forgiveness looks

00:34:26:15 - 00:34:30:09
so different to so many people, and I think it's so easy

00:34:30:09 - 00:34:31:15
because there are so many

00:34:31:15 - 00:34:35:13
biblical teachings about forgiveness to just interpret it in whichever

00:34:35:13 - 00:34:40:03
which way you feel and not actually think about what that actually means.

00:34:40:03 - 00:34:43:03
And so, for example, off the top of my head, you've got,

00:34:45:04 - 00:34:48:15
people interpreting forgiveness as, okay,

00:34:49:23 - 00:34:52:11
have you truly forgiven that person though

00:34:52:11 - 00:34:55:09
If you're going to not allow the abuser

00:34:55:09 - 00:34:58:09
around your family and your children, is that true forgiveness?

00:34:58:09 - 00:35:01:04
So that's one interpretation is like forgiveness.

00:35:01:04 - 00:35:04:02
So like we're going to go back to how everything was.

00:35:04:02 - 00:35:08:08
And that is, if I'm honest, how I'm really encouraged to kind of

00:35:09:09 - 00:35:11:09
get to a stage in my life by people around

00:35:11:09 - 00:35:13:09
me, like religious elders and people around me.

00:35:13:09 - 00:35:17:10
It's like, okay, well, forgiveness is, you know, he's invited to your wedding,

00:35:18:12 - 00:35:21:14
then you've got this other kind of forgiveness, which is like,

00:35:21:22 - 00:35:24:20
I forgive you, but I'm letting.

00:35:24:20 - 00:35:27:22
But that's me kind of just letting go of the negative emotions

00:35:28:19 - 00:35:31:14
that one I struggle with because I'm like,

00:35:31:14 - 00:35:34:16
I understand and I feel like you're going to talk to me a bit more about it.

00:35:35:02 - 00:35:39:14
I understand it, but there's also the kind of third part of forgiveness,

00:35:39:14 - 00:35:43:20
which is like the person is sorry and they show remorse for their actions,

00:35:44:03 - 00:35:48:19
and then you have an agency to, to, forgive.

00:35:49:04 - 00:35:52:19
And I guess what I struggle with is the third one in that

00:35:52:19 - 00:35:54:22
someone says that they're sorry and you forgive them

00:35:54:22 - 00:35:56:22
where there's some sort of, I guess, power involved

00:35:56:22 - 00:35:59:03
or some sort of transaction involved there.

00:35:59:03 - 00:36:02:03
And the whole, okay, let's go back to normal.

00:36:02:13 - 00:36:05:10
That's so ingrained because you teach a child,

00:36:05:10 - 00:36:08:12
you know, if they snatch something away and it's like, okay, say sorry.

00:36:09:07 - 00:36:10:07
And then the other person okay.

00:36:10:07 - 00:36:11:23
And then forgive them. Okay, done.

00:36:11:23 - 00:36:13:11
And then you've got the religious teaching

00:36:13:11 - 00:36:17:03
which can be interpreted as like let's just go back to how everything was.

00:36:17:10 - 00:36:20:10
And then there's this other one which is around emotion and

00:36:20:19 - 00:36:23:00
and not letting the negativeness get to you.

00:36:23:00 - 00:36:24:22
And I guess what I really struggle with is

00:36:24:22 - 00:36:29:09
when so many people have so many different analysis and reasons for what

00:36:29:09 - 00:36:32:15
forgiveness is, and can back that up with different parts of Scripture,

00:36:33:15 - 00:36:34:14
it can lead to a

00:36:34:14 - 00:36:38:08
really sometimes damaging forcefulness on the person

00:36:38:08 - 00:36:41:18
who's been abused to ultimately like, let go of it and

00:36:42:02 - 00:36:46:20
and move on for the sake of everyone else who feels like other than themself. -Yes.

00:36:47:06 - 00:36:48:21
I mean,

00:36:48:21 - 00:36:50:14
it's such a heavy, loaded topic.

00:36:50:14 - 00:36:53:12
The reason I say that forgiveness doesn't always imply reconciliation

00:36:53:12 - 00:36:57:09
is because I think that is the biggest stumbling block

00:36:57:09 - 00:37:01:08
that I find when I speak to victims of sexual abuse.

00:37:01:24 - 00:37:04:24
Is that if I’m forgiving them, does that mean that I'm

00:37:05:11 - 00:37:07:22
saying that what they did was okay? -Yeah.

00:37:07:22 - 00:37:11:01
If I'm being really honest, when I walk people that are

00:37:11:13 - 00:37:16:02
victims of sexual abuse through the biblical journey

00:37:16:02 - 00:37:20:07
of forgiveness, most of them, when they start on a Christian healing

00:37:20:07 - 00:37:23:15
journey, are actually more likely to report to the place,

00:37:24:14 - 00:37:25:14
afterwards.

00:37:25:14 - 00:37:27:21
Wow

00:37:27:21 - 00:37:29:05
because

00:37:29:05 - 00:37:32:12
one of the first stages of Christian forgiveness

00:37:33:06 - 00:37:36:06
is understanding that you've been wronged.

00:37:38:12 - 00:37:41:12
And most victims don't do that.

00:37:41:13 - 00:37:43:22
Forgiveness is not saying that someone

00:37:43:22 - 00:37:47:04
what someone did is right, and it's not letting them off the hook.

00:37:47:19 - 00:37:50:19
What it is, is acknowledging that we live in a fallen world,

00:37:51:06 - 00:37:55:15
and that the people's actions don't measure up to God’s

00:37:55:15 - 00:38:00:21
standard and saying I am distancing, I'm releasing myself

00:38:00:21 - 00:38:05:07
off of the negative emotions that I harbour

00:38:05:07 - 00:38:08:07
towards this person, not negative facts

00:38:08:22 - 00:38:10:03
There’s a massive difference.

00:38:10:03 - 00:38:12:23
it's not saying that what they did was right.

00:38:12:23 - 00:38:16:18
And actually, when you walk through when I walk through it with someone,

00:38:17:01 - 00:38:19:24
I'm like, okay, so this was said, this is forced,

00:38:19:24 - 00:38:22:08
this is a robbing of your body.

00:38:22:08 - 00:38:24:06
This is a robbing of your autonomy.

00:38:24:06 - 00:38:26:11
And what this person did was wrong.

00:38:26:11 - 00:38:27:12
That's the first stage.

00:38:27:12 - 00:38:30:08
We have to admit that first before we can go anywhere,

00:38:30:08 - 00:38:33:24
and then we end up thinking about okay, so what feelings do you feel?

00:38:34:08 - 00:38:37:05
Do you feel shame because that shame doesn't belong to you.

00:38:37:05 - 00:38:41:12
Scripture says that in Christ we're free indeed, right, so that shame

00:38:41:12 - 00:38:42:05
Doesn’t belong to you.

00:38:43:11 - 00:38:43:22
Then there's anger

00:38:43:22 - 00:38:49:11
the Bible says, be angry, but sin not, so you can be angry

00:38:49:11 - 00:38:52:11
and you should be angry about it, because what happened was awful

00:38:53:02 - 00:38:56:02
and then we're saying, okay, I'm angry about this.

00:38:56:18 - 00:39:00:01
But I'm not going to allow this to sow a seed of bitterness

00:39:00:01 - 00:39:03:10
in my life that that stops me from moving forward.

00:39:03:10 - 00:39:07:09
I mean, even from a medical point of view, we know that unforgiveness

00:39:07:13 - 00:39:10:15
causes so much damage to our physical bodies.

00:39:11:16 - 00:39:14:16
Can actually which just feels so unfair

00:39:14:16 - 00:39:17:19
in many ways but can lead to,

00:39:18:22 - 00:39:21:22
so many kind of internal kind of issues

00:39:22:02 - 00:39:25:24
because our bodies just can't handle handle holding on to so much negativity.

00:39:26:07 - 00:39:28:16
I don't know that a lot of people in the narcissistic

00:39:28:16 - 00:39:31:16
recovery space, in the abuse space would say that

00:39:32:01 - 00:39:35:24
forgiveness is, is something that we should never give to perpetrators,

00:39:35:24 - 00:39:40:10
because it's like it's allowing them to have more ownership over them.

00:39:40:10 - 00:39:44:17
I'm saying, and I look at the scripture and I see that forgiveness

00:39:44:24 - 00:39:48:24
is in many ways a release and saying you’ve done, something wrong

00:39:49:15 - 00:39:52:24
and I just refuse to allow you to rob me of anymore.

00:39:54:19 - 00:39:56:04
Of me.

00:39:56:04 - 00:39:59:03
You've already taken from me something that you didn’t deserve.

00:39:59:03 - 00:40:01:22
And now I've got to let it go.

00:40:01:22 - 00:40:04:22
I've got to let go of the emotions.

00:40:05:05 - 00:40:09:00
Of the, the repercussions of the emotions associated with that

00:40:09:10 - 00:40:12:05
and understand that,

00:40:12:05 - 00:40:15:00
we're all we're all born imperfect.

00:40:15:00 - 00:40:17:14
And then one of the last stages of forgiveness is, you know,

00:40:17:14 - 00:40:20:22
because a lot of times people are forgiving people,

00:40:20:22 - 00:40:24:06
especially with sexual abuse, who will never, ever, ever say sorry.

00:40:24:14 - 00:40:27:14
We're all so forgiving at that point.

00:40:27:18 - 00:40:31:14
When you look at the whole scripture, you know, a victim will then say to me

00:40:31:14 - 00:40:34:23
something like, oh, so actually what this person did to me was not just

00:40:34:23 - 00:40:39:18
a violation of myself, the law and the word of God.

00:40:41:00 - 00:40:43:07
It was a violation of like like justice.

00:40:43:07 - 00:40:46:07
Like I deserve justice.

00:40:46:09 - 00:40:48:06
And it's usually at that point where people are like,

00:40:48:06 - 00:40:50:09
okay, so I think I need to report to the police now

00:40:50:09 - 00:40:52:24
Wow. -Yeah, yeah.

00:40:52:24 - 00:40:55:06
And that's usually when it happens.

00:40:55:06 - 00:41:00:18
So I, I find, I find the Christian healing journey if managed well and in a, in

00:41:00:18 - 00:41:03:18
a healthy environment of discipleship, will often lead

00:41:03:18 - 00:41:06:18
someone to report to if they haven’t.

00:41:06:21 - 00:41:09:24
You said something eally powerful when I first met you around

00:41:10:04 - 00:41:13:04
when people ask you if you’ve forgiven your abusers,

00:41:14:03 - 00:41:15:06
do you remember what you said?

00:41:15:06 - 00:41:15:14
Yeah.

00:41:15:14 - 00:41:17:22
I mean, it's the same answer I usually give, which is like,

00:41:17:22 - 00:41:22:20
I've forgiven, but I'm still forgiving because I've forgiven.

00:41:23:03 - 00:41:26:05
But the thing about sexual abuse

00:41:27:00 - 00:41:31:06
is that there are there are for many people and like myself, repercussions, right,

00:41:31:23 - 00:41:35:18
there are the sexual abuse is it's not just about sexual abuse, which is why

00:41:36:05 - 00:41:39:12
God sees it as such an offense and such an affront to us.

00:41:40:04 - 00:41:42:03
It's all the other things. It's the control.

00:41:42:03 - 00:41:43:11
It's the effects of the mental health.

00:41:43:11 - 00:41:46:14
It can be the control of the finances and family decisions.

00:41:46:14 - 00:41:50:18
careers, so many other things that come along with sexual abuse.

00:41:50:18 - 00:41:54:20
It's not just I always say that sexual abuse is like a car crash

00:41:54:20 - 00:41:59:04
except no one, no one sees as a car crash, everyone sees it as a scratch.

00:41:59:19 - 00:42:03:04
Like you need to be seen by all the specialists, right?

00:42:03:09 - 00:42:07:11
Your brain, your heart, your body, your neurological system, it affects everything.

00:42:07:21 - 00:42:11:08
And so there may be things that continue to trigger us.

00:42:11:08 - 00:42:13:18
And so we have to consistently say, you know what?

00:42:15:07 - 00:42:17:16
I'm not going to let that fester.

00:42:17:16 - 00:42:20:15
I'm not going to let that, plant a seed.

00:42:20:15 - 00:42:23:00
I do think triggers can be a good thing,

00:42:23:00 - 00:42:25:17
because sometimes they can actually expose areas

00:42:25:17 - 00:42:28:16
of our ourselves where we still believe a lie because of our abuser

00:42:28:16 - 00:42:32:17
especially in long term abusive kind of relations.

00:42:33:09 - 00:42:36:20
And we need to kind of deal with things that we believe ourselves

00:42:36:20 - 00:42:39:20
about, about ourselves that are not sure.

00:42:40:04 - 00:42:42:24
And sometimes it can just be really unhealthy and send us

00:42:42:24 - 00:42:48:24
into a more neurological or a mental state that is that isn't health helpful.

00:42:49:03 - 00:42:53:10
And so we need people and professionals to help us work through that.

00:42:54:12 - 00:42:56:15
And that's why I think forgiveness has to be a journey,

00:42:56:15 - 00:43:00:03
because it's not as easy as it's

00:43:00:03 - 00:43:03:03
not a one stop shop to heal it.

00:43:03:18 - 00:43:06:10
It's a healing journey, not a healing event.

00:43:06:10 - 00:43:07:09
So does not mean that

00:43:08:21 - 00:43:11:21
in terms of your teachings of forgiveness

00:43:12:15 - 00:43:15:01
is something that you can never complete.

00:43:15:01 - 00:43:19:17
I think the decision is something that you make is a decision that you make.

00:43:20:05 - 00:43:21:23
You make that decision

00:43:21:23 - 00:43:25:09
and then you choose to you choose to do, you choose to stick to it.

00:43:26:01 - 00:43:29:04
But because it's a healing journey

00:43:29:04 - 00:43:32:11
and because of the impact, the long lasting impact of sexual abuse

00:43:33:01 - 00:43:36:01
is something that you have to continue to do as a Christian,

00:43:36:19 - 00:43:39:03
because we would be belittling the

00:43:39:03 - 00:43:42:03
and belittling the impacts of sexual abuse,

00:43:42:08 - 00:43:44:21
to assume that it's not going to affect

00:43:44:21 - 00:43:47:21
you different ways in your life.

00:43:48:02 - 00:43:51:02
For example like when people get to relationships right,

00:43:51:14 - 00:43:54:19
what often, oftentimes I remember when I spoke to my husband about it

00:43:54:19 - 00:43:59:19
and he the first thing he said to me was, Oh you make so much sense now.

00:44:03:06 - 00:44:05:19
After being like, I'm going to kill him

00:44:05:19 - 00:44:08:19
so that that that that's.

00:44:09:19 - 00:44:11:07
Took some time.

00:44:11:07 - 00:44:15:09
After we got past that stage he was just like you make a lot of sense

00:44:16:08 - 00:44:19:09
because it affects us, affects the way we behave, affects the way we interact

00:44:19:09 - 00:44:23:13
with people, affects whether we choose to love or allow ourselves to be loved.

00:44:24:09 - 00:44:27:15
And that's why I say that forgiveness has to be.

00:44:27:15 - 00:44:30:12
It's something we decide, but it's also a journey.

00:44:30:12 - 00:44:32:01
Yeah.

00:44:32:01 - 00:44:35:12
And so what's the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation?

00:44:36:16 - 00:44:39:16
So forgiveness is when you're saying,

00:44:40:12 - 00:44:43:08
I refuse for this to be,

00:44:43:08 - 00:44:46:21
I refuse to allow the feelings associated to the person

00:44:47:07 - 00:44:50:13
who is imperfect, who has sinned and has done wrong,

00:44:52:08 - 00:44:53:13
to really be something that,

00:44:54:14 - 00:44:55:06
that actually

00:44:55:06 - 00:44:58:06
affects me long term and how I see the world, actually,

00:44:58:11 - 00:45:01:11
it's it's saying that what has happened is wrong,

00:45:01:18 - 00:45:04:12
but I refuse to allow this person

00:45:04:12 - 00:45:07:14
to to live in my heart also at the same park,

00:45:08:00 - 00:45:11:00
as is a detriment to myself if I’m being really honest.

00:45:11:21 - 00:45:14:21
And reconciliation is a conversation around

00:45:15:07 - 00:45:19:07
maintaining a relationship or reconciling or,

00:45:21:08 - 00:45:23:16
I would say starting a relationship again

00:45:23:16 - 00:45:26:16
with the person that did the abusing.

00:45:26:18 - 00:45:29:11
I don't think that's very healthy.

00:45:29:11 - 00:45:32:11
I don't see any,

00:45:33:05 - 00:45:34:05
and I know that

00:45:34:05 - 00:45:38:16
there have been some instances, which is incredible for them,

00:45:39:04 - 00:45:42:21
where people have been able to reignite relationships

00:45:42:21 - 00:45:45:21
with people that have sexually abused them.

00:45:46:13 - 00:45:49:23
I would question the need to make that

00:45:49:23 - 00:45:53:19
a one size fits all for everybody.

00:45:54:00 - 00:45:59:06
Yeah, -Because safety is paramount and very important.

00:45:59:21 - 00:46:03:09
And we also know that the average sexual abuseer abuses

00:46:03:10 - 00:46:07:07
over, has committed over 100 sexual crimes in a lifetime.

00:46:07:12 - 00:46:07:19
Yeah.

00:46:08:20 - 00:46:10:17
So the idea of

00:46:10:17 - 00:46:14:05
reconciling can also be a very dangerous conversation.

00:46:14:13 - 00:46:18:00
If you're reconciling, you're getting back in contact

00:46:18:00 - 00:46:21:10
with someone who, you know, from a, from a Christian standpoint,

00:46:21:10 - 00:46:23:19
I would say it has a has a disposition to

00:46:23:19 - 00:46:25:08
do this again, Scripture’s very clear.

00:46:25:08 - 00:46:28:11
Like, you know, we we we have we have the,

00:46:29:22 - 00:46:33:12
we have the capability to do things that, are not what God wants for us

00:46:33:12 - 00:46:37:08
again and again and again, and also to put other people in danger.

00:46:37:17 - 00:46:38:22
Yeah.

00:46:38:22 - 00:46:43:01
Am I having that be any of these people that sexually abused me within

00:46:44:04 - 00:46:47:18
in my kind of environment and around my children?

00:46:47:22 - 00:46:50:11
Absolutely not.

00:46:50:11 - 00:46:50:21
Yeah.

00:46:50:21 - 00:46:52:07
It would be irresponsible

00:46:54:03 - 00:46:58:08
This conversation is making me realize that for so long, at least in my life,

00:46:58:16 - 00:47:02:16
forgiveness and reconciliation have been bundled together as the same thing.

00:47:03:07 - 00:47:05:06
-No. -Yeah

00:47:05:06 - 00:47:09:06
And so, you know, I guess there’s three main things at the moment.

00:47:09:06 - 00:47:12:06
So, like, I'm in a position now where

00:47:12:08 - 00:47:15:08
I was really lucky to get a conviction for my abuser

00:47:15:10 - 00:47:17:07
And I say that because the stats are so rare

00:47:17:07 - 00:47:19:09
that people actually end up getting convicted.

00:47:19:09 - 00:47:20:10
Less than

00:47:20:10 - 00:47:23:02
Rape is less than 2% in the UK. -Yeah.

00:47:26:08 - 00:47:27:04
I mean, there's a lot of

00:47:27:04 - 00:47:30:14
reasons as to why my abuser pleaded guilty to my crime,

00:47:31:00 - 00:47:35:01
mainly because there was evidence from a more recent offense and

00:47:36:01 - 00:47:39:03
it was basically, I think, a legal way to like,

00:47:39:03 - 00:47:42:03
get himself less time.

00:47:42:08 - 00:47:45:08
I don't believe that he has shown

00:47:46:05 - 00:47:48:14
remorse for what has happened.

00:47:48:14 - 00:47:50:13
But I remember when he was in jail,

00:47:50:13 - 00:47:54:05
I was going to this moment where I was like, so much of everything

00:47:54:05 - 00:47:57:23
that's happened since the abuse got disclosed has happened without the two of us.

00:47:58:14 - 00:48:01:05
The person who was the effect of those actions

00:48:01:05 - 00:48:04:05
and the person with the harmful sexual behavior,

00:48:04:08 - 00:48:05:21
we never met throughout that whole time.

00:48:05:21 - 00:48:08:21
We never spoke. We haven't spoken since.

00:48:08:22 - 00:48:11:16
And I was at a place this was back when I was like my first year of uni.

00:48:11:16 - 00:48:16:05
I just felt like I would love to understand what was going on.

00:48:16:09 - 00:48:18:24
I would love to understand if you recognize

00:48:18:24 - 00:48:21:15
what you were doing was wrong, if you think I'd even have remembered it.

00:48:21:15 - 00:48:25:21
How the whole court process family disclosure thing happened from your end,

00:48:25:21 - 00:48:27:03
how are you feeling?

00:48:27:03 - 00:48:30:04
And that wasn't to say because I'm ready to forgive.

00:48:30:12 - 00:48:33:02
I was just in a situation where I wanted to understand.

00:48:33:02 - 00:48:36:04
So I wrote them a letter during that time

00:48:37:00 - 00:48:39:24
and I sent it off, and it basically just said,

00:48:39:24 - 00:48:43:05
I feel like this whole thing

00:48:43:05 - 00:48:46:08
has happened without two people at the center actually talking about it.

00:48:47:07 - 00:48:48:23
I'd really

00:48:48:23 - 00:48:50:04
be interested to meet you

00:48:50:04 - 00:48:53:18
and understand your points of view and just to have a raw conversation,

00:48:54:06 - 00:48:55:16
I promise, like,

00:48:55:16 - 00:48:59:10
I'm not going to be screaming at you like I'm not meeting from a place of anger.

00:48:59:10 - 00:49:02:10
I just want to meet from a place of understanding.

00:49:02:11 - 00:49:06:02
I don't want you to respond to me via other people.

00:49:06:22 - 00:49:09:05
I want I want you to respond to me directly

00:49:09:05 - 00:49:12:05
because I think other people will change words

00:49:12:05 - 00:49:16:02
and I want you to be aware that just because I want to meet with you now

00:49:16:09 - 00:49:21:11
in a space where I feel like it's safe because either he's literally locked away

00:49:21:15 - 00:49:25:01
or I felt like I had some sort of power or agency.

00:49:25:14 - 00:49:28:21
That doesn't mean that I might want to meet in the future like my

00:49:28:22 - 00:49:31:16
my opinions are going to change. So I wrote this letter.

00:49:31:16 - 00:49:32:04
I sent it off.

00:49:33:07 - 00:49:35:04
Then I was speaking to an elder in the family

00:49:35:04 - 00:49:38:04
and basically I got told off

00:49:38:04 - 00:49:41:04
for sending that letter and

00:49:42:01 - 00:49:46:00
the point of view was like, if you send that letter,

00:49:46:00 - 00:49:49:18
you might have breached a, restraining order that they might have against you.

00:49:49:18 - 00:49:53:19
So that's going to look harder for them and then they're going to really struggle.

00:49:54:08 - 00:49:56:13
You know, like with their conditions of bail

00:49:56:13 - 00:49:59:13
or anything like that, you've made it harder for their lives.

00:50:00:00 - 00:50:00:17
And I was like

00:50:00:17 - 00:50:01:20
And then and I was like,

00:50:01:20 - 00:50:05:05
no, I just wanted to send this letter to kind of understand their point of view.

00:50:05:17 - 00:50:08:17
And then the position from this elder was basically,

00:50:09:07 - 00:50:11:01
you don't need to. Anyway.

00:50:11:01 - 00:50:13:08
when are you going to forgive him?

00:50:13:08 - 00:50:14:19
Because we've forgiven him.

00:50:15:21 - 00:50:17:14
And so when are you going to do it?

00:50:17:14 - 00:50:19:18
And I said my response at the time

00:50:19:18 - 00:50:24:06
and I very rarely eldest immigrant daughter, you know how it is.

00:50:24:13 - 00:50:27:01
I very rarely talk back.

00:50:27:01 - 00:50:29:13
But this was the one time I was like, you know what?

00:50:29:13 - 00:50:32:06
Like, genuinely, I can't keep my mouth silent anymore.

00:50:32:06 - 00:50:35:06
And for me, talking back was just saying

00:50:35:11 - 00:50:38:14
I can't forgive if that person's not sorry.

00:50:39:13 - 00:50:41:16
And I realize now

00:50:41:16 - 00:50:44:16
when I've spoke to you that, you know, there's loads of different ways where

00:50:45:12 - 00:50:47:07
remorse is slightly different to forgiveness.

00:50:47:07 - 00:50:51:12
Reconciliation is slightly different to forgiveness from a Christian setting.

00:50:52:02 - 00:50:54:20
But there's so many examples within that story

00:50:54:20 - 00:50:57:21
where it's like everyone wanted something different.

00:50:58:14 - 00:51:03:21
And what I found the most challenging was consistently being met with.

00:51:03:24 - 00:51:06:20
But we give forgiveness for why can't you?

00:51:06:20 - 00:51:09:10
And I guess what I find really difficult is it's like,

00:51:09:10 - 00:51:13:04
how can you forgive for something that didn't happen to you?

00:51:13:11 - 00:51:15:11
Yes, you can forgive the breach of trust.

00:51:15:11 - 00:51:18:06
I suppose, but like like forgiving the sexual abuse

00:51:18:06 - 00:51:21:10
and the sexual crime, I just feel like it's embedded into me

00:51:21:10 - 00:51:26:07
so deep and there's so much pain and hurt by how Christianity has been used for me.

00:51:26:07 - 00:51:30:18
Almost as like a ticking time bomb to get everything back to how it was.

00:51:30:18 - 00:51:34:06
But to even now, as an adult, as an older adult,

00:51:34:15 - 00:51:37:18
come to, come to terms with what forgiveness could be.

00:51:37:18 - 00:51:42:06
It's just so painful and so steeped in anger.

00:51:42:06 - 00:51:43:11
If I'm totally honest.

00:51:46:02 - 00:51:47:08
I'm really sorry for the way

00:51:47:08 - 00:51:51:11
that the Christian faith and forgiveness was kind of used as a, like,

00:51:52:11 - 00:51:55:11
bashing, to get you

00:51:55:14 - 00:51:58:03
to a place that you weren't emotionally ready for

00:51:58:03 - 00:52:02:14
Forgiveness is a command for the Christian,

00:52:02:14 - 00:52:05:03
but it's something that needs a lot of grace.

00:52:05:03 - 00:52:07:17
Only God can give the grace to something like that.

00:52:07:17 - 00:52:12:23
Abuse affects lots of different people, apart from the abused person.

00:52:13:16 - 00:52:16:01
But the abused person's wellbeing

00:52:16:01 - 00:52:19:21
is the most important thing in this.

00:52:20:19 - 00:52:23:22
And actually it's really interesting because I'm with my husband,

00:52:23:22 - 00:52:25:20
my husband knew

00:52:25:20 - 00:52:29:08
some of the abuse and very well one of the abusers that abused me.

00:52:29:23 - 00:52:32:23
And actually my husband had a harder time

00:52:33:09 - 00:52:35:22
forgiving

00:52:35:22 - 00:52:38:24
much, he really struggled with that,

00:52:40:08 - 00:52:41:18
really, really, really struggled.

00:52:41:18 - 00:52:46:03
And it kind of makes it makes sense why he would,

00:52:46:08 - 00:52:49:23
Our desire for things to go back to

00:52:50:12 - 00:52:54:18
how things were before abuse and our desire

00:52:55:00 - 00:52:59:06
to keep family dynamics should never come

00:52:59:06 - 00:53:02:06
before our care of the victim.

00:53:03:13 - 00:53:06:13
And I find

00:53:06:15 - 00:53:10:21
also speaking from personal experience that in a lot of family dynamics,

00:53:11:02 - 00:53:17:18
the sadly there is an unspoken animosity towards the victim.

00:53:18:01 - 00:53:20:01
Yeah.

00:53:20:01 - 00:53:22:05
Because people just feel like

00:53:22:05 - 00:53:25:23
you remind them of why the family

00:53:26:13 - 00:53:31:16
is not this like clean Holy especially in a Christian dynamic it's like

00:53:32:04 - 00:53:36:09
you're a reminder of the stain in the family's history, if that makes any sense.

00:53:36:09 - 00:53:39:15
-Yeah. -And there's this, like, obsession

00:53:39:15 - 00:53:42:18
with family appearance and how the family looks.

00:53:43:04 - 00:53:46:23
And it often takes the place of, righteous

00:53:46:23 - 00:53:49:23
understanding of justice, actually.

00:53:50:19 - 00:53:54:13
And the purpose of family, the purpose of church, community,

00:53:54:13 - 00:53:58:11
whatever community you should be in is to help someone who's been through

00:53:58:11 - 00:54:01:11
something that is ultimately unimaginable for you.

00:54:02:07 - 00:54:04:21
Because actually, yeah, you feel a certain way.

00:54:04:21 - 00:54:06:15
You, you’ve forgiven him.

00:54:06:15 - 00:54:08:07
That doesn't mean that the victim has forgiven him.

00:54:10:01 - 00:54:10:24
And while

00:54:10:24 - 00:54:13:24
forgiveness is a command is a part of daily living,

00:54:14:01 - 00:54:17:11
to get to that place takes can take time.

00:54:18:24 - 00:54:20:22
And I think God is

00:54:20:22 - 00:54:24:10
I don't think I know God as a loving God and he's understanding of that.

00:54:25:11 - 00:54:27:21
And I just wish sometimes

00:54:27:21 - 00:54:29:24
we had the grace.

00:54:29:24 - 00:54:34:20
We ask for the grace to be there for people that God actually intends

00:54:34:20 - 00:54:39:15
for us in terms of our responsibility to humanity and to family members.

00:54:40:06 - 00:54:44:08
I just think we need to be really, really careful, especially in cultures

00:54:44:08 - 00:54:49:11
where there's this expectation of how family should look, that

00:54:49:11 - 00:54:54:02
we don't put the way our family appears over our care of people.

00:54:54:02 - 00:54:57:02
Who’ve been wounded within the family.

00:54:57:09 - 00:55:00:09
That needs to come from everybody and

00:55:00:23 - 00:55:02:19
don't get me wrong, I have seen

00:55:02:19 - 00:55:05:22
how religious spaces can be so joyful.

00:55:05:22 - 00:55:10:10
And I've seen particularly for like immigrant Christian families like my own.

00:55:10:10 - 00:55:11:10
Like, you know, it's

00:55:11:10 - 00:55:15:10
that instant sense of belonging in a space that might otherwise be isolating.

00:55:15:10 - 00:55:17:24
I see it as a source of friendship. I see as a source of solace.

00:55:17:24 - 00:55:19:18
I’ve seen how my parents have got

00:55:19:18 - 00:55:23:13
so much comfort for me, like I do see the benefits for me.

00:55:23:13 - 00:55:26:23
I guess what I, what I struggle with now is that

00:55:28:03 - 00:55:31:03
Christian teachings can so easily be manipulated

00:55:31:06 - 00:55:35:16
and so to give another story, the whole reason

00:55:36:09 - 00:55:38:19
some members of my family found out about the abuse

00:55:38:19 - 00:55:42:24
in the first place was that my abusers, parents wrote to

00:55:44:07 - 00:55:48:07
elders in the family and were basically like, we are aware

00:55:48:07 - 00:55:52:11
this incident happened between Sophia and the abuser.

00:55:52:11 - 00:55:55:11
And you know, we just want you to use your Christian

00:55:55:22 - 00:55:59:04
upbringings and lifestyle to do the right thing

00:55:59:04 - 00:56:03:05
and to support the abusers wife who, you know, is really struggling with this.

00:56:03:05 - 00:56:05:20
And and don't get me wrong, that's a whole other thing

00:56:05:20 - 00:56:08:20
in terms of like staying with abusers and everything like that. But

00:56:10:10 - 00:56:13:11
when I first came to speak about this

00:56:13:11 - 00:56:16:17
with certain elders, they couldn't even look at me, you know what I mean?

00:56:16:17 - 00:56:21:06
It was like suddenly I just become dirty and like, impure.

00:56:21:06 - 00:56:24:19
And, you know, the first question was, were you raped?

00:56:25:00 - 00:56:26:03
And I wasn't raped

00:56:26:03 - 00:56:27:13
So I said no.

00:56:27:13 - 00:56:29:14
And then that was like, okay, I've got the answer.

00:56:29:14 - 00:56:33:09
So therefore they've not done they've not done what I would

00:56:33:16 - 00:56:35:00
consider the ultimate sin.

00:56:35:00 - 00:56:36:21
Therefore it's forgivable.

00:56:36:21 - 00:56:40:24
And even to this day, you know, I very gently get reminded about

00:56:41:07 - 00:56:43:17
I don't know how non domanial

00:56:43:17 - 00:56:46:17
I don't know how nondenominational faiths are in terms of,

00:56:47:03 - 00:56:48:24
saints and like, teachings from saints.

00:56:48:24 - 00:56:51:24
But there's this story

00:56:52:04 - 00:56:56:05
of this Saint called Maria Goretti, and she's a type

00:56:56:05 - 00:57:00:24
she's an Italian 11 year old who grew up in extreme poverty.

00:57:00:24 - 00:57:03:12
Father died, mother was working in the fields.

00:57:03:12 - 00:57:06:17
And basically they were living with another family.

00:57:07:07 - 00:57:09:19
And the 20 year old son of that

00:57:09:19 - 00:57:12:19
family tried to rape her when she was 11.

00:57:13:08 - 00:57:16:08
And basically it happened over a few months.

00:57:16:11 - 00:57:19:11
And even when you read Christian teachings on it,

00:57:19:14 - 00:57:22:08
they report things like successfully,

00:57:22:08 - 00:57:25:10
she successfully managed to maintain her purity,

00:57:25:20 - 00:57:30:14
which basically means like he didn't rape her, but then he stabbed her

00:57:30:14 - 00:57:34:02
14 times because she wouldn't, that she wouldn't let him rape her.

00:57:34:08 - 00:57:37:11
And she's become a saint because on her deathbed,

00:57:37:11 - 00:57:40:11
her last words were I forgave my abuser.

00:57:40:18 - 00:57:44:07
And he says that she appeared to him while he was in jail.

00:57:44:07 - 00:57:46:11
And then he lived a life in the monastery.

00:57:46:11 - 00:57:50:14
And what I find so, so, so problematic and challenging,

00:57:50:14 - 00:57:53:10
and it's kind of like what we talked about that being forced is that

00:57:54:21 - 00:57:57:21
this story is brought up to me so often,

00:57:59:00 - 00:58:00:23
almost as if to say, well, she did it so

00:58:00:23 - 00:58:03:06
why can't you, why can't you forgive?

00:58:03:06 - 00:58:04:01
And forgiveness

00:58:04:01 - 00:58:08:11
is a very strictly defined thing, which means he comes to your wedding.

00:58:08:11 - 00:58:09:18
He's part of our lives.

00:58:09:18 - 00:58:11:22
We don't want to die as Christians,

00:58:11:22 - 00:58:14:22
feeling like we've not done our duty of encouraging you to forgive.

00:58:15:18 - 00:58:19:12
And we're in a situation now where my abuser is still married.

00:58:19:23 - 00:58:22:07
Still part of the family. I just don't see him.

00:58:22:07 - 00:58:26:01
A lot of members of the family choose not to see him, and it's just this unsaid.

00:58:26:01 - 00:58:26:16
Said thing.

00:58:26:16 - 00:58:30:18
And then I often worry like, oh, as an adult, when

00:58:31:17 - 00:58:34:19
when my abusers children or people that I really care about

00:58:34:19 - 00:58:38:15
get older and have significant moments in their life, am I gonna be there?

00:58:38:15 - 00:58:41:21
Like, does forgiveness mean that I can go because I know that

00:58:41:21 - 00:58:45:02
the abuser will be there as well and it's just this consistent.

00:58:45:02 - 00:58:49:17
Battle as I get older, as I’m thinking about as I'm getting married,

00:58:49:17 - 00:58:51:00
is I’m thinking about having children

00:58:51:00 - 00:58:53:16
I just I'm at such a crux and like,

00:58:55:15 - 00:58:57:06
I don't know where to sit in it.

00:58:57:06 - 00:59:00:14
And for a long time, the answer was to just not go to church

00:59:00:14 - 00:59:01:23
to avoid it completely.

00:59:01:23 - 00:59:04:23
Even the thought of having a Christian wedding, if I'm totally honest,

00:59:04:23 - 00:59:07:23
is something that I have really struggled with.

00:59:09:16 - 00:59:10:23
And and ultimately

00:59:10:23 - 00:59:14:01
I'm doing it because I see myself as culturally religious.

00:59:14:08 - 00:59:19:03
I think the uproar of not having the marriage in a Christian context

00:59:19:03 - 00:59:21:01
would be worse than just not doing it,

00:59:21:01 - 00:59:24:09
and it doesn't bother me that much that I want to do it.

00:59:24:09 - 00:59:28:11
But this forgiveness question is consistently top of mind.

00:59:29:07 - 00:59:32:07
And, you know, I don't know if you've heard of the

00:59:32:16 - 00:59:35:07
the three Irish sisters.

00:59:35:07 - 00:59:38:06
I think they're called the Kavanagh Sisters

00:59:38:06 - 00:59:41:06
in Ireland, raped by their father multiple times.

00:59:41:07 - 00:59:43:08
And they've reached a state of forgiveness as well.

00:59:43:08 - 00:59:47:08
And I've spoken to them like I've met them in in person and,

00:59:48:01 - 00:59:51:08
you know, they they were just saying like, you know, our father never said sorry,

00:59:51:08 - 00:59:52:20
but we've reached the state of forgiveness.

00:59:52:20 - 00:59:55:20
And if you want to, that journey can be yours too.

00:59:55:20 - 00:59:58:02
But it's fucking hard, excuse my swearing

00:59:59:09 - 00:59:59:18
But yeah.

00:59:59:18 - 01:00:01:14
Like, it's really hard and like.

01:00:01:14 - 01:00:04:20
Yeah, I guess I've never it's always something that I thought I understood

01:00:05:10 - 01:00:06:07
is what I'm saying.

01:00:06:07 - 01:00:08:04
I for I understood what forgiveness was.

01:00:08:04 - 01:00:09:09
And I thought very strongly

01:00:09:09 - 01:00:13:04
that I knew that I didn't want that or that I was still on that journey.

01:00:13:04 - 01:00:14:22
But when I speak to you, I realize

01:00:14:22 - 01:00:17:22
there's a whole other type of forgiveness that I haven't even considered.

01:00:19:03 - 01:00:20:16
And it's making me really assess

01:00:20:16 - 01:00:23:16
how other people I know have interpreted forgiveness.

01:00:23:17 - 01:00:28:08
The conclusions from how you teach, the family of God that you build

01:00:28:08 - 01:00:32:11
is very centered on being survivor, led survivor first, victim first.

01:00:34:01 - 01:00:36:15
And I've not heard that actively before.

01:00:36:15 - 01:00:38:14
So it's just it's just like it's just teaching me a lot.

01:00:38:14 - 01:00:40:21
Basically, it's making me reflect.

01:00:40:21 - 01:00:43:21
Isaiah 61 talks about Jesus

01:00:43:21 - 01:00:49:00
and it says that, it's the prophet Isaiah speaking of who Jesus would be.

01:00:49:00 - 01:00:52:08
And it says the Spirit of God is upon me as he has anointed me to liberate

01:00:52:08 - 01:00:55:08
the captives, to lift the brokenhearted.

01:00:55:11 - 01:00:55:20
Right.

01:00:57:15 - 01:01:01:03
And immediately we see this foretelling of the Messiah.

01:01:01:03 - 01:01:02:17
Right?

01:01:02:17 - 01:01:04:14
The Savior,

01:01:04:14 - 01:01:08:01
the one that we kind of centre our whole faith around

01:01:08:19 - 01:01:11:12
coming to those that are wounded,

01:01:11:12 - 01:01:13:17
the liberating , from

01:01:13:17 - 01:01:15:18
the present to those who are bound you know?

01:01:15:18 - 01:01:18:18
Listening to the brokenhearted, the acceptable year of the Lord.

01:01:18:24 - 01:01:21:24
We see him coming for those that are

01:01:22:00 - 01:01:24:22
so broken.

01:01:24:22 - 01:01:28:14
And so one of the most important parts of my healing

01:01:28:14 - 01:01:32:16
journey has been separating Christians

01:01:32:16 - 01:01:35:16
with unhealthy and unbiblical behavior

01:01:36:24 - 01:01:39:24
from Christianity

01:01:40:16 - 01:01:43:16
there’s a massive difference.

01:01:44:04 - 01:01:47:04
Christians are human beings,

01:01:47:07 - 01:01:51:05
and oftentimes because of culture, because of their own selfishness, or

01:01:51:05 - 01:01:54:16
because of their own convenience can add

01:01:54:16 - 01:01:57:23
on things, often in the cultural context.

01:01:57:23 - 01:01:59:23
Right?

01:01:59:23 - 01:02:01:06
Just because someone says

01:02:01:06 - 01:02:04:06
something is Christian doesn't mean it's Christian.

01:02:04:14 - 01:02:08:10
Right? That's really important for us to know.

01:02:10:02 - 01:02:13:16
There was a high priest, a minister

01:02:13:16 - 01:02:17:13
in this, in Scripture called Eli, and he had two sons.

01:02:18:13 - 01:02:21:08
And we knew that the we know that they took advantage of women

01:02:21:08 - 01:02:24:05
who were coming to the temple.

01:02:24:05 - 01:02:26:10
Eli's sons were killed because of their sin.

01:02:26:10 - 01:02:29:10
And it was prophesied that they would get killed because of their sin

01:02:30:00 - 01:02:31:07
Eli was killed

01:02:31:07 - 01:02:34:07
because he didn't restrain them.

01:02:34:20 - 01:02:36:07
Because he didn't stop them.

01:02:36:07 - 01:02:38:09
He knew what they did was wrong and he told them off.

01:02:38:09 - 01:02:39:19
But he didn't stop them.

01:02:39:19 - 01:02:43:07
He didn't, he didn't distance his sons from the place

01:02:43:07 - 01:02:46:07
where they were abusing women.

01:02:47:21 - 01:02:50:14
It's really harmful

01:02:50:14 - 01:02:53:06
when we use scripture as a reason

01:02:53:06 - 01:02:56:06
to disregard people's pain.

01:02:56:08 - 01:02:59:08
And it gives people the very wrong impression of Christianity.

01:03:00:07 - 01:03:03:08
And forgiveness is a command, but it's a command that comes

01:03:03:08 - 01:03:08:20
with so much grace and so much kindness from the Lord.

01:03:09:16 - 01:03:13:04
Often far more than we Christians extend to people.

01:03:14:18 - 01:03:16:18
And while God

01:03:16:18 - 01:03:20:15
loves all and loves the abuser and the abused,

01:03:21:07 - 01:03:24:07
it doesn't negate the wrong that that person has done

01:03:25:06 - 01:03:28:18
And God cares about the progress

01:03:28:18 - 01:03:32:00
and the healing journey of the abuser.

01:03:32:10 - 01:03:35:19
The abused, just as much as he cares about the the abuser,

01:03:36:02 - 01:03:38:19
the one that you know it has done it.

01:03:38:19 - 01:03:43:07
And forgiving someone does not mean allowing them back into your life.

01:03:43:24 - 01:03:46:09
It doesn't mean

01:03:46:09 - 01:03:49:06
it doesn't mean putting yourself in harm's way, doesn't necessarily

01:03:49:06 - 01:03:52:06
mean inviting them to occasions.

01:03:53:01 - 01:03:54:17
It doesn't mean any of that.

01:03:54:17 - 01:03:58:10
And this idea that, great, you forgive

01:03:58:10 - 01:04:01:10
Now we just, you know,

01:04:01:11 - 01:04:03:18
we just like,

01:04:03:18 - 01:04:06:08
behave as if nothing has happened

01:04:06:08 - 01:04:09:15
is, as I said before, massively irresponsible.

01:04:10:22 - 01:04:12:10
And even listening to your story,

01:04:13:20 - 01:04:16:20
I'm saddened that,

01:04:17:23 - 01:04:21:12
and I'm saying Christian, and I know there’s Catholic and different denominations. And,

01:04:22:12 - 01:04:25:05
you know, Catholics wouldn’t call themselves Christians, but,

01:04:25:05 - 01:04:28:05
oftentimes. But,

01:04:29:00 - 01:04:30:04
I see,

01:04:30:04 - 01:04:35:00
if I'm being really honest, a lot of hypocrisy, actually,

01:04:36:06 - 01:04:39:04
I'm seeing a lot of behaviors

01:04:39:04 - 01:04:43:07
that don't align to the commands of Scripture.

01:04:43:07 - 01:04:46:07
Just because someone says that something is Christian doesn't mean that it is.

01:04:47:04 - 01:04:51:02
And the Bible says that for anyone

01:04:51:02 - 01:04:54:11
that allows one of these little ones that believe in me,

01:04:55:05 - 01:04:58:08
a person in harm's way is better that a millstone

01:04:58:17 - 01:05:01:14
is tied around their neck,

01:05:01:14 - 01:05:04:14
and their cast into the sea.

01:05:04:21 - 01:05:07:21
Wow, yeah. -Yeah

01:05:10:10 - 01:05:13:10
The Bible takes a very strong stance

01:05:14:09 - 01:05:17:03
on authority figures

01:05:17:03 - 01:05:20:03
and people that are deemed to have responsibility.

01:05:20:04 - 01:05:21:00
Other people,

01:05:23:04 - 01:05:24:15
who have actions and

01:05:24:15 - 01:05:27:15
lead little ones away from God and lead them astray.

01:05:28:14 - 01:05:31:04
The Bible is really, really clear on that.

01:05:31:04 - 01:05:34:11
So any kind of behaviors that I see

01:05:35:07 - 01:05:39:00
that lead people away from Jesus, away from the cross, away from God, God's

01:05:39:12 - 01:05:42:03
a right understanding from God is

01:05:42:03 - 01:05:44:24
I immediately know it's not Christian.

01:05:44:24 - 01:05:47:02
It's rooted in something else.

01:05:47:02 - 01:05:51:13
And so we've got to be careful about intertwining the two and assuming

01:05:51:13 - 01:05:54:21
that God is something that he's not based on other people's behavior.

01:05:55:04 - 01:05:57:00
Thank you for that.

01:05:57:00 - 01:05:57:22
Yeah.

01:05:57:22 - 01:06:00:22
I also think from a safety perspective,

01:06:02:14 - 01:06:05:00
we have to be really careful

01:06:05:00 - 01:06:10:05
about and again, your story unfortunately is textbook.

01:06:10:10 - 01:06:11:12
Yeah.

01:06:11:12 - 01:06:14:16
There's no such thing as someone that just sexually abused someone.

01:06:15:14 - 01:06:18:14
You know, one time, you know, whenever I talk to someone

01:06:18:14 - 01:06:20:07
that’s sexually abused and they say to me

01:06:20:07 - 01:06:23:05
oh but I don’t need to talk about it or report because, you know, was just me,

01:06:24:05 - 01:06:25:00
one of the first

01:06:25:00 - 01:06:28:04
things I have to say is I'm really sorry to break the news.

01:06:31:17 - 01:06:32:18
I’m so sorry

01:06:32:18 - 01:06:34:24
You're not just you.

01:06:34:24 - 01:06:38:09
You're not special -You’re weren’t the first and you won’t be the last

01:06:38:09 - 01:06:41:21
Yeah, and that's why you need to say something.

01:06:42:12 - 01:06:45:06
And you mentioned that you were abused and there was multiple people

01:06:45:06 - 01:06:46:14
that were victims.

01:06:46:14 - 01:06:49:02
They people we don't we don't.

01:06:49:02 - 01:06:52:02
assume that people who abuse people will stop.

01:06:52:05 - 01:06:55:05
We stop them so they stop abusing

01:06:55:12 - 01:06:58:05
and that's that's their role.

01:06:58:05 - 01:07:00:18
Right.

01:07:00:18 - 01:07:02:19
So it's really irresponsible

01:07:02:19 - 01:07:05:24
of us to just put them back in environments

01:07:05:24 - 01:07:09:12
where have the potential to abuse again in the name of Christianity.

01:07:10:01 - 01:07:11:13
Well.

01:07:11:13 - 01:07:14:13
So then what do you say to people who

01:07:14:15 - 01:07:17:16
maybe have a partner that they found that has been abusing children

01:07:18:03 - 01:07:20:22
and are kind of a toss up to decide

01:07:20:22 - 01:07:24:05
whether or not to stay with them or support them through that journey.

01:07:25:17 - 01:07:28:17
That has been or was in the past.

01:07:29:23 - 01:07:31:20
No, sorry. They were an abuser.

01:07:31:20 - 01:07:34:20
They were [the] abuser. So a partner,

01:07:35:07 - 01:07:37:12
someone found out that a partner

01:07:37:12 - 01:07:40:12
is it is an abuser of of children.

01:07:42:00 - 01:07:42:20
Well you go to

01:07:42:20 - 01:07:45:20
the police.

01:07:46:16 - 01:07:48:12
Like you go to

01:07:48:12 - 01:07:49:14
the police.

01:07:49:14 - 01:07:52:14
I mean, you know, when also people talk about all this whole thing about,

01:07:54:16 - 01:07:57:03
Oh, I can’t divorce actually is biblical grounds for divorce.

01:07:57:03 - 01:08:00:15
Technically, because it's sexual activity outside of the marriage.

01:08:00:15 - 01:08:04:14
So technically it's a biblical ground for divorce, actually. But,

01:08:06:06 - 01:08:08:13
you report it

01:08:08:13 - 01:08:10:08
It's against the law.

01:08:10:08 - 01:08:14:16
I don't, I don't I've never understood this whole thing of.

01:08:15:01 - 01:08:17:24
Oh, well, I'm not going to I'm not going to.

01:08:17:24 - 01:08:21:01
And then my other question then is how do you know he hasn’t abused the kids?

01:08:21:01 - 01:08:21:15
Yeah,

01:08:23:14 - 01:08:24:19
because we know for the most

01:08:24:19 - 01:08:28:17
part, at least one of the kids usually is a victim too.

01:08:28:17 - 01:08:31:17
Yeah.

01:08:32:02 - 01:08:33:16
And I guess this is where

01:08:33:16 - 01:08:36:09
what you were saying about separating

01:08:36:09 - 01:08:38:17
Christianity

01:08:38:17 - 01:08:41:17
from what people say is Christian acts, right?

01:08:41:22 - 01:08:44:00
Because I think so often for a lot of people it's like,

01:08:44:00 - 01:08:46:22
oh, well, I'm a good Christian because the ultimate test in my marriage

01:08:46:22 - 01:08:49:12
was finding out that my partner abused kids.

01:08:49:12 - 01:08:51:08
So I got over that by staying with them.

01:08:51:08 - 01:08:54:06
That's another really common story that we hear a lot. -Yeah.

01:08:54:06 - 01:08:56:13
I've heard and if I’m being really honest.

01:08:56:13 - 01:08:57:10
That usually fills me 

01:08:57:10 - 01:09:00:03
with a lot of disgust because

01:09:00:03 - 01:09:01:15
the scripture says God hates divorce.

01:09:01:15 - 01:09:04:09
It also says that he doesn't like abuse either

01:09:04:09 - 01:09:05:16
So I.

01:09:07:22 - 01:09:09:16
You know,

01:09:09:16 - 01:09:14:06
I think we use one scripture to justify our need to maintain

01:09:14:21 - 01:09:17:21
a cultural dynamic that we think puts us in a better light.

01:09:19:15 - 01:09:22:00
I wanted to end this part of the conversation

01:09:22:00 - 01:09:25:00
on something positive. And.

01:09:25:24 - 01:09:28:24
What would you say to somebody

01:09:30:15 - 01:09:32:06
who's Christian

01:09:32:06 - 01:09:36:24
where abuse has come out in their family and they want to be there,

01:09:36:24 - 01:09:39:16
and they want to support the person who was abused.

01:09:39:16 - 01:09:42:23
They are also having a bit of a conflict within their faith,

01:09:42:23 - 01:09:45:23
and they don't really know what to do or where to turn.

01:09:47:16 - 01:09:50:16
First of all, I would say that,

01:09:50:19 - 01:09:53:19
the conflict is human.

01:09:53:19 - 01:09:56:19
And it can be really hard.

01:09:56:22 - 01:09:58:12
And we ask ourselves questions like,

01:09:58:12 - 01:10:01:12
where was God when this was happening, how did God allow this to happen?

01:10:02:13 - 01:10:04:20
And the

01:10:04:20 - 01:10:07:20
Bible talks about us being given free will,

01:10:07:23 - 01:10:10:23
and it's all well and dandy when we want to do what we want to do.

01:10:11:07 - 01:10:14:07
But it sucks when other people’s free will

01:10:15:00 - 01:10:16:22
affects our lives, right?

01:10:16:22 - 01:10:18:18
Yeah.

01:10:18:18 - 01:10:21:08
And I would just say stay at the feet of Jesus

01:10:21:08 - 01:10:23:22
and go through the journey with him,

01:10:23:22 - 01:10:26:10
get angry in his presence.

01:10:26:10 - 01:10:28:06
Talk to him,

01:10:28:06 - 01:10:29:22
share your heart.

01:10:29:22 - 01:10:32:19
Ask him how you can help the person that was abused,

01:10:32:19 - 01:10:35:19
to know that they're loved and seen and appreciated

01:10:36:00 - 01:10:38:13
and that what happened to them

01:10:38:13 - 01:10:41:13
matters and wasn't their fault.

01:10:41:14 - 01:10:43:20
Be careful around

01:10:43:20 - 01:10:47:04
anything that we try to silence the abused or create further impacts.

01:10:47:04 - 01:10:51:14
That will mean their trauma is continued and has deeper consequences for them.

01:10:53:01 - 01:10:56:01
And also actually just decenter yourself

01:10:56:18 - 01:10:58:10
because we have a tendency

01:10:58:10 - 01:11:01:10
to center ourselves on issues.

01:11:02:16 - 01:11:04:16
And that's not helpful

01:11:04:16 - 01:11:07:16
for the one that's actually been abused.

01:11:08:02 - 01:11:11:02
People either go, oh,

01:11:11:05 - 01:11:12:11
oh my gosh, this is awful.

01:11:12:11 - 01:11:15:00
And they make it all about themselves and how they feel.

01:11:15:00 - 01:11:16:18
Or they say, oh my gosh, I was exposed to

01:11:16:18 - 01:11:19:13
this person and no one said anything

01:11:19:13 - 01:11:22:09
And in every situation like that, you are making

01:11:22:09 - 01:11:25:09
yourself more important than the person that actually abused.

01:11:25:14 - 01:11:27:03
Preach

01:11:27:03 - 01:11:30:23
If that's the right, the right use of that, but it's so true.

01:11:31:11 - 01:11:36:01
Decenter yourself like, don't be, don't be silly.

01:11:36:06 - 01:11:41:00
Remember, the focus is on someone's healing journey

01:11:41:06 - 01:11:44:09
and you can actually go through yours in in God's presence.

01:11:44:20 - 01:11:46:23
But remember what's what's most important right now.

01:11:48:04 - 01:11:49:05
Thank you.

01:11:49:05 - 01:11:50:16
Thanks Chioma

01:11:50:16 - 01:11:53:06
And I really hope that someone who's listening,

01:11:53:06 - 01:11:56:08
who's going through that, that is the sort of Christian teaching

01:11:56:08 - 01:11:59:08
that I wish was shared with people I know. So

01:12:00:16 - 01:12:03:19
yeah, I'm really glad that you have you have come

01:12:03:19 - 01:12:04:20
and you've shared this and that.

01:12:04:20 - 01:12:07:01
We can share this with other people.

01:12:07:01 - 01:12:11:11
But what I always say to people is, if you just tell one person

01:12:11:11 - 01:12:15:15
that you listen to our conversation that you've engaged in this platform,

01:12:15:15 - 01:12:20:05
you have no idea the sort of conversations you can open up and the sort of solace

01:12:20:05 - 01:12:21:08
that you could bring to someone

01:12:21:08 - 01:12:24:08
who's been wanting to share that experience for a really long time.

01:12:24:11 - 01:12:27:00
And just remember that you are going to have a conversation

01:12:27:00 - 01:12:29:04
about childhood sexual abuse at one point in your life.

01:12:29:04 - 01:12:30:14
Like, we know it affects

01:12:30:14 - 01:12:33:14
at least a quarter of people, and that's just what's been reported.

01:12:33:21 - 01:12:36:22
So I try and make it a good experience, try make it a positive one.

01:12:36:22 - 01:12:38:18
And particularly with these Christian teachings

01:12:38:18 - 01:12:42:15
that we've talked about today, try and make it one that is survivor centered.